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  Reply # 2116309 29-Oct-2018 15:31
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MikeB4:

 

In todays to attack say jewish beliefs etc it would be instantly labelled anti-semitic and rightly closed down, yet, attacks on christians and christian beliefs do not get the same treatment and in fact are supported and encouraged.

 

 

I don't agree with that .

 

Firstly you define "jewish beliefs" as if there's a stereotypical "jew" who has a set of "beliefs".  There isn't - people who'd identify as jewish have a wide range of beliefs.  There's plenty of criticism from within, between different streams of judaism.  There's a big difference between anti-judaism and anti-semitism.

 

The christian beliefs that do get pilloried often deserve every bit of what they get. American evangelical authoritarian "prosperity theology" combined with intolerance - it's not even close to adhering to christian principles, there's nothing good that can come from it.  Outright hypocrisy. 

 

Perhaps you could give an example of where mainstream christian beliefs are being "attacked".  FWIW, I don't consider the Gloriavale community, the Jehova's Witness, Brian Tamaki's mob etc to be "mainstream". I'd also rightly IMO condemn some of the more authoritarian patriarchal churches, not limited to the Catholic church - for some pretty horrific behaviours that they still haven't come to terms with - and can never make real amends for what they've done.

 

In the end, you're free to believe what you want - in this country at least. We make considerable compromises to be seen to accommodate religion, with reference to the God thing in our national anthem, tax-free status for religious organisations, allowing religious indoctrination in schools etc.  I'd be keen on NZ becoming more secular, but that's going to take some time.




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  Reply # 2116311 29-Oct-2018 15:38
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MikeB4:

 

In todays to attack say jewish beliefs etc it would be instantly labelled anti-semitic and rightly closed down, yet, attacks on christians and christian beliefs do not get the same treatment and in fact are supported and encouraged. Respect for freedom of religious belief is a human right and that includes christian, Islam, Judaism, Bhuddhism etc. It is not conservative religious right wing nutters, it is not the religion, it is the individual and they are included in every belief be it religious or political, be it left or right, conservative or liberal.

 

 

As above, what do you mean? I don't see anyone attacking the Catholic Church, the Church of England or the Orthodox Church.

 

No one is saying their teachings are bad.

 

I do see money-driven evangelicals leaders that ask their congregation to put up money for them to buy private aeroplanes as a total con and they mainly teach hate when involved in politics. That's the conservative right-wing I am talking about.





 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 2116318 29-Oct-2018 15:50
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SJB:

 

Rikkitic:

 

in Britain the anti-Brexit forces can’t seem to capitalise on the change in public sentiment.

 

 

Immigration dominated the news at the time of the referendum with loud mouths like Johnson and Farage in the forefront but everyone I know who voted to leave did it because they didn't want faceless and unelected Eurocrats running the country.

 

 

Last time I checked all MEPs are elected - by those very people who may or may not have voted to 'leave'.


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  Reply # 2116334 29-Oct-2018 16:04
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freitasm:

 

MikeB4:

 

In todays to attack say jewish beliefs etc it would be instantly labelled anti-semitic and rightly closed down, yet, attacks on christians and christian beliefs do not get the same treatment and in fact are supported and encouraged. Respect for freedom of religious belief is a human right and that includes christian, Islam, Judaism, Bhuddhism etc. It is not conservative religious right wing nutters, it is not the religion, it is the individual and they are included in every belief be it religious or political, be it left or right, conservative or liberal.

 

 

As above, what do you mean? I don't see anyone attacking the Catholic Church, the Church of England or the Orthodox Church.

 

No one is saying their teachings are bad.

 

I do see money-driven evangelicals leaders that ask their congregation to put up money for them to buy private aeroplanes as a total con and they mainly teach hate when involved in politics. That's the conservative right-wing I am talking about.

 

 

I am probably wording these posts wrong due to the medication I am currently on and my difficulty typing but I feel It does not take long reading of GZ and other similar sites to see attacks on christians and others and people are often mocked for their christian beliefs or religious beliefs.





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  Reply # 2116365 29-Oct-2018 16:07
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MikeB4:

 

freitasm:

 

MikeB4:

 

In todays to attack say jewish beliefs etc it would be instantly labelled anti-semitic and rightly closed down, yet, attacks on christians and christian beliefs do not get the same treatment and in fact are supported and encouraged. Respect for freedom of religious belief is a human right and that includes christian, Islam, Judaism, Bhuddhism etc. It is not conservative religious right wing nutters, it is not the religion, it is the individual and they are included in every belief be it religious or political, be it left or right, conservative or liberal.

 

 

As above, what do you mean? I don't see anyone attacking the Catholic Church, the Church of England or the Orthodox Church.

 

No one is saying their teachings are bad.

 

I do see money-driven evangelicals leaders that ask their congregation to put up money for them to buy private aeroplanes as a total con and they mainly teach hate when involved in politics. That's the conservative right-wing I am talking about.

 

 

I am probably wording these posts wrong due to the medication I am currently on and my difficulty typing but I feel It does not take long reading of GZ and other similar sites to see attacks on christians and others and people are often mocked for their christian beliefs or religious beliefs.

 

 

Probably the same way some religious people mock and abuse atheists...





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  Reply # 2116369 29-Oct-2018 16:15
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freitasm:

 

 

 

Probably the same way some religious people mock and abuse atheists...

 

 

 

 

I agree and that is why I wrote the bit you didn't quote.....

 

"Normalising attacks on groups is dangerous as is normalising attacks on individuals. Here is an example of how attacks or insults can become part of everyday adjectives or nouns. Take the term retard or retarded a term that is/was a term describing a learning or mental disability but I hear and read it daily as a term of insult or attack. Allowing attacks and normalising attacks against groups or allowing the name of a group to be associated with attacks can lead to discrimination and perscecution." 

 

 





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A Tiger in Africa, probably escaped from the Zoo.

 

 


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  Reply # 2116378 29-Oct-2018 16:25
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It's easy to have the race card pulled on you if you say something against Judaism, Muslims etc, but mocking Christians is fair game for sure. 

 

Imo people get offended way too easily these days, I think whatever you do or don't believe in, it should be fair game to criticism. 


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  Reply # 2116405 29-Oct-2018 17:00
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Ask anyone who looks muslim/hindu/sikh if they've been at the receiving end of mocking/taunting about their religion/race, and then ask a few christians the same.  Do this in "good tolerant NZ".

 

I guess we're talking about "mocking" as opposed to criticism or rational debate.  

 

Sorry - I'm not buying into the "persecuted christian" argument in NZ if that's what's happening here.  It's BS.




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  Reply # 2116408 29-Oct-2018 17:04
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msreef:

 

Imo people get offended way too easily these days, I think whatever you do or don't believe in, it should be fair game to criticism. 

 

 

Imagine how the anti-vaxers, the dinosaurs-lived-with-Adam and flat-earthers feel, all persecuted...





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  Reply # 2116411 29-Oct-2018 17:09
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freitasm:

 

msreef:

 

Imo people get offended way too easily these days, I think whatever you do or don't believe in, it should be fair game to criticism. 

 

 

Imagine how the anti-vaxers, the dinosaurs-lived-with-Adam and flat-earthers feel, all persecuted...

 

 

Well they'll have to get over it.


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  Reply # 2116412 29-Oct-2018 17:11
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Rikkitic:

 

I included Brexit because it was very much a populist issue. I have the impression (could be wrong of course) that public sentiment has in fact shifted, and if the vote were held again today, it would go the other way. This is why there is public pressure to do exactly that. The argument about unelected Eurocrats running the country was part of the emotive populist appeal that won the vote, and is now being regretted. Like all emotive populist arguments, it is also fake. It has been repeatedly shown that Britain has gained much more than it has given up as a member of Europe and that it will fade into obscurity once the relationship is broken. The days of empire are well and truly over. I come from Holland and I can assure you our country is not run by unelected Eurocrats. It is run by elected Dutch politicians.

 

 

My understanding is that the country is still split roughly 50-50 (according to journalists on the BBC News 24 programme The Papers that I watch every day) but the vote might well go the other way. As I said though, unless the shift was significant eg 60-40 against Brexit the losing brexiteers would be complaining just as loudly as the remainers are now.

 

I'm sure dyed in the wool brexiteers could repeatedly show you that Britain has given much more than it has ever gained so that argument is pointless.

 

At the end of the day it is impossible to say if, taking everything in to account, being part of the EU has been beneficial or not. You would have to rerun history with the alternative to see if that is the case. Similarly no one can say in the future if staying in would have been better unless you could also rerun the alternative scenario.

 

And it's nothing to do with empire, that disappeared a long, long time ago. Personally I think they are both better off without each other.

 

 


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  Reply # 2116414 29-Oct-2018 17:14
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Fred99:

 

Ask anyone who looks muslim/hindu/sikh if they've been at the receiving end of mocking/taunting about their religion/race, and then ask a few christians the same.  Do this in "good tolerant NZ".

 

I guess we're talking about "mocking" as opposed to criticism or rational debate.  

 

Sorry - I'm not buying into the "persecuted christian" argument in NZ if that's what's happening here.  It's BS.

 

 

I am not saying it is just Christians that are  the target.  I am not explaining myself well here so I will try again maybe tomorrow when my medication levels are lower.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

A Tiger in Africa, probably escaped from the Zoo.

 

 


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  Reply # 2116415 29-Oct-2018 17:16
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elpenguino:

 

SJB:

 

Rikkitic:

 

in Britain the anti-Brexit forces can’t seem to capitalise on the change in public sentiment.

 

 

Immigration dominated the news at the time of the referendum with loud mouths like Johnson and Farage in the forefront but everyone I know who voted to leave did it because they didn't want faceless and unelected Eurocrats running the country.

 

 

Last time I checked all MEPs are elected - by those very people who may or may not have voted to 'leave'.

 

 

I didn't know MEP's actually did anything. Most people in Britain have absolutely no idea of who their MEP is.

 

The turnout for MEP elections is very, very low.


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  Reply # 2116432 29-Oct-2018 17:44
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SJB:

 

There isn't much of a change of public sentiment. Apparently polling shows it's still around 50-50 so whichever way it goes an awful lot of people will be upset.

 

 

Not really - there's been a steady decline in support:

 

 

Edit to say - the way that chart is presented exaggerates the difference, the gap may be 5% but that's about 52.x vs 47.x - so yes, people are going to be upset. 

 

The "50:50" split remains though - in reply to the question as to whether to have a second referendum.


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  Reply # 2116444 29-Oct-2018 18:40
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Apologies if we are getting off topic here.

 

One of the difficulties with another referendum is what question to ask. There are people who don't want to leave under any circumstances, those who want to leave but only under the 'right' conditions, those that are happy to leave with any deal and those who are happy to leave with out a deal.

 

How can you satisfy those views with a single yes/no question.

 

 

 

 


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