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SJB

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  Reply # 2111806 21-Oct-2018 11:23
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xlinknz:

 

Agreed in that if this wasn't done so blatantly (which suggest arrogance in addition to incompetence) i.e. he had a 'car accident' few would pay attention

 

Some good may come of it as it raises the spotlight on a number points such as

 

  • The nature of the Saudi regime i.e. human rights (rated among the worse in the world), the war in Yemen
  • The US relationship with Saudi
  • Maybe a positive shift in the political dynamics of the region? (good on Turkey for not caving into pressure or a cover-up...so far)
  • The safety of journalists

Let's see what response NZ takes (if anything) over the next few days or weeks

 

 

I wish I had your optimism.

 

Nothing will change as far as the Saudi regime is concerned because they have an iron hold on their country supported by religious fanaticism and a feared secret police. And lots of money.

 

The US - Saudi relationship won't change either especially with Trump in place. Try reading the book House of Bush House of Saud to see how deep it goes.

 

The whole region is a mess and unpredictable. For example Israel would nuke Tehran if it thought it could get away with it and Iran would nuke Tel Aviv if they had the weapons.

 

As far as journalists go a lot of governments would just like them to disappear. The murder of one of them from time to time is of no consequence to them.

 

 


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  Reply # 2111811 21-Oct-2018 11:34
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A government that has no rule of law and murders its citizens instead of protecting them is the very definition of a rogue state. The only reason that label is not applied to Saudi Arabia is because it has oil and friends in high places. 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


SJB

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  Reply # 2111812 21-Oct-2018 11:47
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Rikkitic:

 

A government that has no rule of law and murders its citizens instead of protecting them is the very definition of a rogue state. The only reason that label is not applied to Saudi Arabia is because it has oil and friends in high places. 

 

 

 

 

It does have a rule of law. In fact it has two, one the government abides by (stay in power by any means possible) and one imposed on it's people (keep them subjugated by any means possible).

 

If a rogue state is one that murders it's own citizens the list is very long. Let's start with America.




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  Reply # 2111833 21-Oct-2018 13:01
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SJB:

 

...The US - Saudi relationship won't change either especially with Trump in place. Try reading the book House of Bush House of Saud to see how deep it goes.

 

 

Thank you for that I look and see if the library has it

 

Imagine the irony of the Saudi's publicly beheading (as they do) those responsible (scapegoats or not)

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2111834 21-Oct-2018 13:03
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I am aware of that and I don't defend it but I still think there is a difference. America at least usually tries to justify its murders in some way. I guess the real test is to ask yourself where, if you had to make a choice, would you prefer to live? I know what my decision would be.

 

 





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SJB

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  Reply # 2111843 21-Oct-2018 13:19
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Rikkitic:

 

I am aware of that and I don't defend it but I still think there is a difference. America at least usually tries to justify its murders in some way. I guess the real test is to ask yourself where, if you had to make a choice, would you prefer to live? I know what my decision would be.

 

 

 

 

Justifying as in police maybe saying 'We thought the guy had a gun and we were at risk so we shot him 20 times in the back while he was running away'? 

 

Saudi Arabia might say they are defending the stability of the country by eradicating dissidents who spread 'fake news'.

 

I don't think justification has any relevance. It's state sponsored murder whichever way you look at it.

 

As for where to live, fortunately they are not countries I need to consider.

 

 




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  Reply # 2112026 21-Oct-2018 19:14
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NZ new reports NZ has spoken to the local Saudi ambassador?

 

Intnl pressure (not NZ!) e.g. Germany is building irrespective of the US

 

The Turks approach is smart, whilst they hold back on the recording(s) the Saudi's are digging their hole deeper and I think this is why there are mixed or changing msgs from the US (Trump) as they don't want to caught up in it either by taking the wrong position this early

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2115204 27-Oct-2018 21:20
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This case has highlighted to me how much of a monster Mohammed bin Salmon (MBS) is and it's scary to think he may be in power for the next 50 yrs. I hate the guy after reading about his involvement in the war in Yemen, rounded up his own royal family and made them handover assets under the guise of anti-corruption round up (Jared Kushner reported to have handed MBS a blacklist of names of people opposing him), Qatar blockade saying they were funding terrorism and the ridiculous demands Saudi made, married his cousin - gross! Also reports of beating her up, assaulted Lebanon president in Saudi and made him announce resignation on tv, he returned to Lebanon and withdrew resignation, has a troll farm on social media and threw female activists that were pro driving in jail. When Canada asked for their release he kicked the Canadian ambassador out of Saudi - over the top reaction.

 

 

 

He's almost like the smiling assassin. I think he wants to become the leader of the Middle East and he'll aim to achieve that with violence or buying his way to power. 

 

 

 

After reading reports of his top men saying they basically don't do anything without his permission, I believe MBS knew of the premeditated murder. Saw reports of him and Kashoggi having a phone conversation plus several calls to his office/secretary or something around the time of the murder. 

 

 

 

Interesting to see Kashoggi's son has been allowed to travel after the 'photo-op'. Apparently has dual US-Saudi citizenship. And Kashoggi's fiancé has refused Trumps invitation to the White House on the basis it's a PR stunt and not sincere. 

 

 

 

 




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  Reply # 2115221 27-Oct-2018 21:43
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chatterbox:

 

...Interesting to see Kashoggi's son has been allowed to travel after the 'photo-op'. Apparently has dual US-Saudi citizenship. And Kashoggi's fiancé has refused Trumps invitation to the White House on the basis it's a PR stunt and not sincere. 

 

 

It could well be MBS has 'allowed' Kashoggi's son to travel as a gesture to the US or as a mutual benefit to the USA/Saudi A

 

There is definitely political maneuvering going on by US/Turkey and Saudi since Saudi's only real ally of significance besides $ is the USA

 

Turkey is being careful despite imho the arrogance and or incompetence Saudi A is showing

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2115301 28-Oct-2018 08:39
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I have been very impressed with the way Turkey has been dealing with this tragedy. They have shown huge intelligence in skill in slowly releasing the facts to gain maximum impact from the awful Saudi's. 

 

Saudi's latest statement indicating that it MAY have been premeditated was called comedic from Turkey.

 

Whilst I am not hopeful that the person/persons who ordered this hit will ever face justice, it does seem that Turkey is doing everything within its power to try and make that happen by carefully calculated pressure.

 

This has also shown what a weak pathetic person Trump is and I am hopeful that the Democrats will take full advantage.

 

At the same time a little disappointed at NZ's response to this. We seem to be far more vocal about much smaller world issues. We were also very slow to comment on Russia's similar hit in the UK.


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  Reply # 2115302 28-Oct-2018 08:47
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NZ Government condemns Khashoggi killing, calling it 'deeply disturbing':

Stuff: The New Zealand Government has formally condemned the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi by Saudi operatives earlier this month, calling it "deeply disturbing".

Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters and Minister for Trade and Export Growth David Parker issued a joint statement on Sunday afternoon, saying the Government "continues to condemn in the strongest possible terms" the journalist's death.



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  Reply # 2115307 28-Oct-2018 09:31
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Bluntj:

 

...At the same time a little disappointed at NZ's response to this. We seem to be far more vocal about much smaller world issues. We were also very slow to comment on Russia's similar hit in the UK.

 

 

In regards to the NZ response (as quoted by @gzt) it appears that is has disappointingly not been updated since the Saudi's admission of essentially an extra judicial assassination

 

Of course the NZ govt (like the US and most the world) will be mindful of the value of its exports to Saudi esp. since the Saudi's tend to threaten those who criticize them




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  Reply # 2117797 1-Nov-2018 12:39
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It would seem Saudi's are consistent in their contempt what other countries think of what they do

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12152503

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


gzt

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  Reply # 2117983 1-Nov-2018 16:57
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Many Saudis do not agree with this kind of stuff as Khashoggi would no doubt explain if he was still here to do so. Khashoggi in many cases believed it was a majority.



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  Reply # 2118043 1-Nov-2018 18:57
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gzt: Many Saudis do not agree with this kind of stuff as Khashoggi would no doubt explain if he was still here to do so. Khashoggi in many cases believed it was a majority.

 

When I say Saudi's I do mean there govt. I appreciate not all Saudi's believe in what goes on there

 

Imagine if Iran did the same in one of their embassies to a Saudi, I wonder if the US response would be different?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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