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525 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2170986 31-Jan-2019 18:53
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Darude34:

 

Journeyman:

 

Darude34:

 

It will backfire as this new green party will just pull votes from the already national supporters.

 

 

Seems to have worked ok for the Green Party and Labour, no?

 

 

I don't recall any other parties creating or cohooting a new party to win votes from the opposition. So no, it did not work for them, and was never tried.

 

This new party would need to get more than 5% of votes for it to work with the MMP threshold. Thats a big ask considering that the current green party got 6.3% in 2017.

 

 

Do you have any evidence that a bluegreen party is being created or "cohooted" (whatever that means) by a larger party? Or is this just something you've imagined?


817 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2170989 31-Jan-2019 18:59
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Darude34:

 

On the property side of things please dont get me started. Property here is mostly stolen. Land was taken, and should be returned.

 

Your post is offensive.

 

 

Property is kind of a big thing; it's not as simple as just land. There were plenty of portions sold through fair exchange, although there's no getting away from the fact that lots was either seized or taken by force. 

 

We have mechanisms for returning as much of this land as is possible. It's an ongoing process. Just returning all of that land isn't really viable and most people interested in working through these things probably accept that. 


 
 
 
 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2170990 31-Jan-2019 18:59
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Darude34:

 

On the property side of things please dont get me started. Property here is mostly stolen. Land was taken, and should be returned.

 

Your post is offensive.

 

 

Property is kind of a big thing; it's not as simple as just land. There were plenty of portions sold through fair exchange, although there's no getting away from the fact that lots was either seized or taken by force. 

 

We have mechanisms for returning as much of this land as is possible. It's an ongoing process. Just returning all of that land isn't really viable and most people interested in working through these things probably accept that. 


24 posts

Geek
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  Reply # 2171016 31-Jan-2019 20:48
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Can you elaborate on the queue jumping? 


7998 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 2171150 1-Feb-2019 09:58
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Dingbatt: So point by point

Socialists believe everyone should be made to be equal. The reference is from Animal Farm.

 

Do you form all your political views from works of fiction?


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 2171454 1-Feb-2019 19:57
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Fred99:

 

Do you form all your political views from works of fiction?

 

 

Are you saying that the fact that Animal Farm was an allegory for socialism has completely escaped you up to now?  If so, you probably ought to read it again before engaging in political debate


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  Reply # 2171580 1-Feb-2019 23:12
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shk292:

 

Fred99:

 

Do you form all your political views from works of fiction?

 

 

Are you saying that the fact that Animal Farm was an allegory for socialism has completely escaped you up to now?  If so, you probably ought to read it again before engaging in political debate

 

 

Oh BS - it was not.  (it was an allegory about the Russian revolution, and in Orwell's words "Since 1930 I had seen little evidence that the USSR was progressing towards anything that one could truly call Socialism")

 

Orwell was a democratic socialist - not a capitalist.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2171594 2-Feb-2019 00:52
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Darude34:

 

No those right National facists are just cunning a plan to cahoot the next election. It will backfire as this new green party will just pull votes from the already national supporters.

 

 

Check the actual election results. The Greens got 11% of the vote in the 2014 election (won by National). While they only got 6.3% of the vote in the 2017 election (won by Labour). And going back further, the Greens mostly tend to get more votes when National wins the election. Sure, maybe the people who voted Green don't like National. If so, then why didn't they vote for Labour? As Labour are the main party that opposes National. And there was at lease 1 election that National won, that would have instead easily been won by Labour if most Green party voters had voted Labour instead.

 

This shows that there is definitely a voter bloc that is pro environment, yet finds that the current Green party is too far to the left for their liking. And it also shows a major problem for the Green Party - In that the greens are only ever in power when Labour is also in power. So there is no benefit in voting for the Green party compared to voting for Labour. Especially as Labour and the Greens have very similar policies.

 

 

 

Alot will depend on what the opinion polls leading up to the next election report. If polling shows that the Greens and NZF may not make the 5% threshold. Then that will be a large group of voters who might be willing to give a new party a go. Have a look at those who voted for the Conservative party, and then the Opportunities Party.

 

The issue is that Pro environment and socialist policies never go together very well. Providing financial help to low income people to help them pay their power bills is a good example of that. As extra power usage = more carbon emissions. And JA complaining about high petrol prices due to their effect on low income people. Even though high petrol prices are a great way to discourage petrol usage and therefore lower carbon emissions.

 

Also look up which countries have the lowest per capita carbon emissions. Countries like PNG and the Congo, which I don't see people rushing to emigrate to, or held up as countries that we should aspire to emulate. And the socialist countries that have high living standards, normally get most of their money from selling oil and / or minerals. Which is definitely not environmentally friendly, as they typically also have lax environmental laws and / or lax enforcement or corruption that means that pollution is rife.






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  Reply # 2171596 2-Feb-2019 07:03
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Fred99:

shk292:


Fred99:


Do you form all your political views from works of fiction?



Are you saying that the fact that Animal Farm was an allegory for socialism has completely escaped you up to now?  If so, you probably ought to read it again before engaging in political debate



Oh BS - it was not.  (it was an allegory about the Russian revolution, and in Orwell's words "Since 1930 I had seen little evidence that the USSR was progressing towards anything that one could truly call Socialism")


Orwell was a democratic socialist - not a capitalist.


 


 


History was not my strongest subject but I seen to recall that the revolution had something to do with socialism

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  Reply # 2171597 2-Feb-2019 07:14
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bunker:

I'm curious to know what all these National voters envisage when they complain about the Greens and talk about a "true environmental party." Are they actually supportive of addressing climate change and reducing emissions. Do they want New Zealand to be a global leader as opposed to a fast follower? Because that's the biggest environmental challenge at the moment.


I get the feeling a lot of these people saying they would have supported a "teal" coalition after the last election think that environmental just means conservation therefore a bit of extra money to help out the Kakapo. 


Maybe I'm wrong though


Personally I'd like to see a party that had more emphasis on the other environmental issues, eg water quality, preservation of bio diversity, air quality to name a few. And less on the socialism, social justice, pacifism and climate change. To answer one question, I'm perfectly ok for NZ to be a follower on CC; I'd rather we prioritised our ability to adapt while doing our share.

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  Reply # 2172107 3-Feb-2019 09:49
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shk292:
History was not my strongest subject but I seen to recall that the revolution had something to do with socialism

 

Sounds consistent with the National Party last century, who somehow managed to link compulsory superannuation with "dancing Cossacks".

 

FWIW, Marx never advocated (forced) equality of outcome.


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  Reply # 2172124 3-Feb-2019 10:42
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Fred99:

 

Sounds consistent with the National Party last century, who somehow managed to link compulsory superannuation with "dancing Cossacks".

 

FWIW, Marx never advocated (forced) equality of outcome.

 

 

I'll take your word for National last century; I wasn't living in NZ then.  We had a version of compulsory super in the UK in the form of National Insurance, and in the military we had a compulsory pension scheme.  Both seemed to work quite well and although kiwisaver is a bit "light", it's a start.

 

In a perfect world, some of Marx's ideas would work well - but we're not in a perfect world and they seem to have been a spectacular failure wherever they have been tried.


817 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2172130 3-Feb-2019 11:02
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shk292:

 

I'll take your word for National last century; I wasn't living in NZ then.  We had a version of compulsory super in the UK in the form of National Insurance, and in the military we had a compulsory pension scheme.  Both seemed to work quite well and although kiwisaver is a bit "light", it's a start.

 

 

Kiwisaver is a tax for being under 65 while you continue to fund people who are over 65 getting free money whether they need it or not. In a low wage economy, that's kind of rubbish. 


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 2172157 3-Feb-2019 12:25
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GV27:

 

Kiwisaver is a tax for being under 65 while you continue to fund people who are over 65 getting free money whether they need it or not. In a low wage economy, that's kind of rubbish. 

 

 

How is kiwisaver a tax?  You invest money, after a defined period, you get the investment back.  How does this fund people over 65?


570 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2172374 3-Feb-2019 18:30
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shk292:

 

GV27:

 

Kiwisaver is a tax for being under 65 while you continue to fund people who are over 65 getting free money whether they need it or not. In a low wage economy, that's kind of rubbish. 

 

 

How is kiwisaver a tax?  You invest money, after a defined period, you get the investment back.  How does this fund people over 65?

 

 

 

 

Technically we're not guaranteed to get the KS investment back, but I think it's unlikely the all would be lost.

 

I think his statement about funding people over 65, relates to NZ Super being funded from general taxation, at the same time as KiwiSaver is also being deducted. It's likely (IMHO) that NZ Super will be supplanted by KiwiSaver or at least means tested against KS balances, at some point in the future. Under that scenario today's taxpayers are paying twice, for only one benefit. 


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