Christchurch Mosque Shooting

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#2549237 25-Aug-2020 09:27

dejadeadnz:

From a sentencing point of view, this case is actually entirely predictable. He will almost certainly be the first person ever to be sentenced to life without parole or, at least, an extraordinarily long non-parole period. Really I am not sure that society's objectives (i.e. preservation of order, maintenance of justice, and general/specific deterrence) are well served by the massive sideshow of a sentencing exercise of dragging him into court in the current climate. He doesn't give a crap one way or another about the victims or their families and nothing they say will meaningfully change him or the material facts of the case.

The families giving impact statements is NOT about him, it's about the victims confronting the person who did so much harm and their telling of that harm. It will be part of the healing process for the victims and their families. It is essential that the victims, the families, friends and community get their say, to deny them would be incredibly insensitive and wrong.

He must be given preventative detention with no chance of parole. He must be told that everyone he knows will slowly die and he will not be able to attend the funerals, and that eventually everyone he knew will have forgotten him and that he will die, in prison, alone.

sir1963

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#2549258 25-Aug-2020 10:35

DarthKermit:

Christ, he's only 29. He could live for many decades behind bars.

Just as the friends and families of his victims will live with his actions for decades

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#2549260 25-Aug-2020 10:37

sir1963:

DarthKermit:

Christ, he's only 29. He could live for many decades behind bars.

Just as the friends and families of his victims will live with his actions for decades

I don't think he was sympathizing, I think he was thinking about the cost/logistics of such a long sentence.

Just a guess of course.

The angry part of me wants the Government to pay to house him in a Thai maximum security prison, ideally near a mosque where for the rest of his days he has to live to the sound of Muslims peacefully worshipping. It would be cheaper almost certainly, as an added benefit.

dejadeadnz

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#2549280 25-Aug-2020 10:49

sir1963:

The families giving impact statements is NOT about him, it's about the victims confronting the person who did so much harm and their telling of that harm. It will be part of the healing process for the victims and their families. It is essential that the victims, the families, friends and community get their say, to deny them would be incredibly insensitive and wrong.

He must be given preventative detention with no chance of parole. He must be told that everyone he knows will slowly die and he will not be able to attend the funerals, and that eventually everyone he knew will have forgotten him and that he will die, in prison, alone.

I am quite aware of the recent orthodoxy of allowing victims to have a say blah blah. I've previously detailed my views (based on professional experience) on VISes here. These victims and families have been far more restrained and dignified than many makers of VISes that I have seen, which is to their credit -- but in the midst of a worldwide pandemic, COVID CT in the community, and having the risk of letting this guy appear in front of the press etc giving his fellow racists a chance to rub one out metaphorically, a far more sensible decision would have been to force him to appear via T/C, as the court is empowered to do.

It will mostly be a matter of symbolic significance as to whether he gets life without parole or not. In reality, this guy won't be paroled (if at all) unless and until he's absolutely decrepit and no threat. I for one have no great concern over what will happen to him and how he feels. The quicker we move on from this sentencing sideshow, the better.

SJB

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#2549282 25-Aug-2020 10:52

sir1963:

dejadeadnz:

From a sentencing point of view, this case is actually entirely predictable. He will almost certainly be the first person ever to be sentenced to life without parole or, at least, an extraordinarily long non-parole period. Really I am not sure that society's objectives (i.e. preservation of order, maintenance of justice, and general/specific deterrence) are well served by the massive sideshow of a sentencing exercise of dragging him into court in the current climate. He doesn't give a crap one way or another about the victims or their families and nothing they say will meaningfully change him or the material facts of the case.

The families giving impact statements is NOT about him, it's about the victims confronting the person who did so much harm and their telling of that harm. It will be part of the healing process for the victims and their families. It is essential that the victims, the families, friends and community get their say, to deny them would be incredibly insensitive and wrong.

He must be given preventative detention with no chance of parole. He must be told that everyone he knows will slowly die and he will not be able to attend the funerals, and that eventually everyone he knew will have forgotten him and that he will die, in prison, alone.

Personally I wouldn't gain any relief or closure by standing in front of him and telling him how I feel or the effect of his actions had on me. I would probably gain more satisfaction by jumping into the dock and beating him until he was a vegetable.

Sentencing should have taken 5 minutes in a closed court and we should never see or hear from him again. It could be followed by some sort of national commemoration service where whoever wanted to could speak. We shouldn't be giving this guy any exposure at all, it's exactly what he, and the twisted people that think like he does, want.

dejadeadnz

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#2549286 25-Aug-2020 11:03

SJB:

Personally I wouldn't gain any relief or closure by standing in front of him and telling him how I feel or the effect of his actions had on me. I would probably gain more satisfaction by jumping into the dock and beating him until he was a vegetable.

Sentencing should have taken 5 minutes in a closed court and we should never see or hear from him again. It could be followed by some sort of national commemoration service where whoever wanted to could speak. We shouldn't be giving this guy any exposure at all, it's exactly what he, and the twisted people that think like he does, want.

Another lawyer I know suggested that they should have made that guy appear by T/C and had the victims spread out across different courtrooms at the Chch courthouse and elsewhere, if we must have the long-winded process. It actually emphatically shows that people can still be united despite geographical distance and that this society and not his ways are in control. But in an age of superficiality where people only scratch the surface on most things, were the powers-that-be to implement this, there will be howls of outrage from the rent-a-crowd so called victims' advocates like the Sensible Sentencing Trust. It's also interesting to note that the SST hasn't been carping on about this case at all -- maybe the victims aren't of the right profile for them to care about or maybe the victims (probably the latter) are intellectually and morally advanced enough to not want a bar of them. Either way, thank goodness.

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#2549309 25-Aug-2020 11:22

I think it is easy for those of us not directly affected by this to make assumptions about those who are. From some victim interviews I have seen, it seems to be important to at least some of them to be able to relate in person to the perpetrator their response to his murderous actions. At the very least, they should be entitled to do that if that is their wish. Then he should be shut away forever.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#2549381 25-Aug-2020 12:08

I have said it before, in the aftermath of what can only be described as a horrific and tragic event, the way the people directly affected have conducted themselves leaves me in absolute awe of them.

I maintain far more good comes from faith than bad, even though the bad is sometimes so so bad.

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#2549565 25-Aug-2020 16:07

FYI due covid/number limits in each court families/victims are still spread across 7 courts like you imagine could have happened. With those not in the judges court doing statements at the time watching via video

Believe there are 200 total who requested attendance.

I happened to be at the airport at the time of arrival. Once the omg factor wore off, it was somewhat scary seeing in person.

dejadeadnz

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#2550011 26-Aug-2020 14:01

We are now into the 3rd day of the victims and/or the deceased's families giving VISes. Objectively speaking, they are just the same stuff repeated over and over. Some have gone into territories that are clearly legally unacceptable, e.g. calling the dickhead a maggot. Yes, he is a scumbag but courtrooms and the justice system don't exist to just allow people to ventilate whatever that's inside their head. In terms of the administration of justice, it's really difficult to see what this is adding.

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#2550015 26-Aug-2020 14:05

dejadeadnz:

We are now into the 3rd day of the victims and/or the deceased's families giving VISes. Objectively speaking, they are just the same stuff repeated over and over. Some have gone into territories that are clearly legally unacceptable, e.g. calling the dickhead a maggot. Yes, he is a scumbag but courtrooms and the justice system don't exist to just allow people to ventilate whatever that's inside their head. In terms of the administration of justice, it's really difficult to see what this is adding.

Legally, sure, but I expect if you asked the Victims (Who are and should be the most important people throughout this) what they got out of it, and if they felt they got value from the process, I think you'd get your answer.

Considering they have to suffer the rest of their lives, I'd argue a few days of this isn't at all an unreasonable thing. A small price to pay even if the perceived value by others is minimal. If it bothers you, why watch, just ignore it.

MikeB4

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#2550020 26-Aug-2020 14:16

I have lost a relative through a violent act and I found myself not able to face the perpetrator, my healing formed in other ways. My personal feelings in this matter is allowing a few days for this to occur as a part of healing for those lost loved ones is a small period time compared to the lifetimes of days lost to so many. My aroha will always be for those people.

dejadeadnz

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#2550037 26-Aug-2020 14:45

networkn:

Legally, sure, but I expect if you asked the Victims (Who are and should be the most important people throughout this) what they got out of it, and if they felt they got value from the process, I think you'd get your answer.

Considering they have to suffer the rest of their lives, I'd argue a few days of this isn't at all an unreasonable thing. A small price to pay even if the perceived value by others is minimal. If it bothers you, why watch, just ignore it.

Why do people always have to turn these debates into emotionally laden tropes? As discussed by another poster, many courtrooms are being taken up to facilitate this. This means that many other criminal trials that are equally important to the alleged victims involved in those, in addition to the accused there, are being pushed back. The HC also hears cases relating to appeals from the Family Court (which often involve vulnerable children), cases from the civil jurisdiction, and other things. Excessively delayed criminal trials risk giving an accused the opportunity to apply for a stay for breach of their rights under the NZBORA. I don't personally care that much one way or another (although this is objectively simply a repetitive sideshow) but speedy and efficient administration of justice is a wider societal issue, on which everyone has an interest.

MikeB4

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#2550116 26-Aug-2020 15:55

I get what you are saying @dejadeadnz and appreciate your professional and life experience in matters like this and thank you for the time you take in preparing your post. I do however feel that the profound impact this incident had on New Zealand it is almost impossible to remove emotion from any discussion. I also like to say that this post by me is in no way an attack on what you are saying here or yourself.

SJB

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#2550215 26-Aug-2020 18:16

If the perpetrator had shown an ounce of remorse when hearing the victims relatives/friends statements then maybe they would have got some satisfaction or closure from it but IMO seeing him sit there and snigger back at them is not going to help their healing process.

Their obvious rage is just going to make him feel he's the 'winner' in all of this even more.

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