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Handle9
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  #2550226 26-Aug-2020 18:33
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networkn:

 

dejadeadnz:

 

We are now into the 3rd day of the victims and/or the deceased's families giving VISes. Objectively speaking, they are just the same stuff repeated over and over. Some have gone into territories that are clearly legally unacceptable, e.g. calling the dickhead a maggot. Yes, he is a scumbag but courtrooms and the justice system don't exist to just allow people to ventilate whatever that's inside their head. In terms of the administration of justice, it's really difficult to see what this is adding.

 

 

Legally, sure, but I expect if you asked the Victims (Who are and should be the most important people throughout this) what they got out of it, and if they felt they got value from the process, I think you'd get your answer.

 

Considering they have to suffer the rest of their lives, I'd argue a few days of this isn't at all an unreasonable thing. A small price to pay even if the perceived value by others is minimal. If it bothers you, why watch, just ignore it.

 

 

There is a fairly inconsistent understanding of the purpose of the criminal justice system. It doesn't exist for victims, and nor should it. It exists to punish, deter and rehabilitate those who commit crimes. It doesn't exist to cater to victims. That may sound fairly callous but it is the logic is pretty clear.

 

The fundamental concept of justice in Western democracy is that it is objective - that justice is "blind". Once victims rights come into play that goes out the window. If I was a victim my desires would be in no way objective. I want revenge, not justice.

 

Victims lives are ruined, or ended, by these types of people but unless you want a fairly scary justice system victims are witnesses and complainants, not the focus of the system. There should be far more support for victims of crime, but that belongs in the health and social welfare system, not the justice system.


MikeB4
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  #2550241 26-Aug-2020 19:02
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@Handle9 it will never work in this case but have you ever heard of Restorative Justice?

Handle9
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  #2550243 26-Aug-2020 19:06
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MikeB4: @Handle9 it will never work fully in this case but have you ever heard of Restorative Justice?

 

Yes I have. It's not how the New Zealand (or any of the systems based off the English system) system works.

 

It would be a  fundamental changes to the justice system instead of a bolt on like VIS.


Handle9
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  #2550287 26-Aug-2020 19:09
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I should add that restorative justice is almost untenable in our current political climate - the (not) Sensible Sentencing Trust and all the "tough on crime" (but do nothing about the causes of the crime) idiots would kill it.


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  #2550288 26-Aug-2020 19:09
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Handle9:

MikeB4: @Handle9 it will never work fully in this case but have you ever heard of Restorative Justice?


Yes I have. It's not how the New Zealand (or any of the systems based off the English system) system works.


It would be a  fundamental changes to the justice system instead of a bolt on like VIS.



NZ does use restorative justice, it’s all detailed in www.justice.govt.nz

Handle9
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  #2550296 26-Aug-2020 19:16
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It's another bolt on that doesn't change the fundamentals of how the justice system works - it's post admission of guilt rather a fundamental change to the system based on getting better outcomes.

 

@dejadeadnz is far better qualified than I am to really comment but a system truely based around these concepts would look very different than what New Zealand has.


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  #2550297 26-Aug-2020 19:20
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I think a new thread should be used to discuss this but I doubt it would achieve anything with centuries old attitudes but knock yourself out.

Handle9
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  #2550299 26-Aug-2020 19:24
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MikeB4: I think a new thread should be used to discuss this but I doubt it would achieve anything with centuries old attitudes but knock yourself out.

 

I absolutely agree with the bit I bolded. There isn't much rationality when it comes to crime and punishment in Anglo Saxon countries.


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  #2550301 26-Aug-2020 19:25
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dejadeadnz:

 

We are now into the 3rd day of the victims and/or the deceased's families giving VISes. Objectively speaking, they are just the same stuff repeated over and over. Some have gone into territories that are clearly legally unacceptable, e.g. calling the dickhead a maggot. Yes, he is a scumbag but courtrooms and the justice system don't exist to just allow people to ventilate whatever that's inside their head. In terms of the administration of justice, it's really difficult to see what this is adding.

 

 

 

 

Can I suggest reading up on the experience from another country which went through a similar if not arguably worse experience, i.e. Norway?

 

Rather than seek to cover up the motivations of the shooter, he was allowed to conduct his case under a full blaze of media attention, and scrutiny, allowing the entire spectrum of his beliefs to be picked apart by the entire population. As a journalist, I have to agree with claims that sunlight is much better than no sunlight when it comes to handling injustice.

 

Published yesterday, this article is headlined:

"Dear Christchurch, Breivik's trial showed us extremist ideas struggle in the light"

 

 


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  #2550306 26-Aug-2020 19:43
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Handle9:

 

It's another bolt on that doesn't change the fundamentals of how the justice system works - it's post admission of guilt rather a fundamental change to the system based on getting better outcomes.

 

@dejadeadnz is far better qualified than I am to really comment but a system truely based around these concepts would look very different than what New Zealand has.

 

 

We do have some elements of a true restorative justice system (one of the mistakes that people make when they consider what is a restorative justice system is to think solely in terms of the victim -- most serious practitioners of RJ consider a genuine attempt at restoring the offender into a contributing member of society to also be an essential element of a true RJ system). Examples include the Alcohol and Drug Dependency Court and the Rangatahi and Pasifika Courts .

 

As I am sure is abundantly clear to people, I am not a fan of the increasing and often thoughtless slide into so called victim/complainant-centred justice. The last government made some amendments to the Victim Rights Act that limited the scope of judicial interference and prosecutorial discretion when victims go a bit unhinged in VISes (and this does happen). My problem with this kind of thing (along with other politically popular stunts like making evidence/procedural laws that give particular protections to certain kinds of complainants, e.g. automatic ban on an accused cross-examining a rape complainant when representing themselves but no such thing if the accused is alleged to have beaten the victim to one inch of her life) is that there's usually no rhyme or consistent logic behind the choices. Except for the fact that they sound good.

 

At the end of the day, people need to remember one thing: a justice system exists to disarm everybody. In exchange for you as a victim/slighted person/or whatever not being able to just gather up the biggest crowd that you can to beat someone who robbed you to death, society agrees to provide a system of laws and enforcement that more or less guarantees most people a civilised and peaceful existence. Another side of that bargain is that wrongdoers (cue shock and horror for SST and their supporters) are still treated as humans, hence why Mr Terrorist here won't be tortured to death. Aside from all kinds of sensible moral reasons why we don't/shouldn't torture offenders, pragmatically giving (most) people a chance to restore their lives somewhat even after heinous offending encourages most of them to surrender peacefully.

 

A true justice system requires a degree of dispassion and inherent restraint. Often times almost everybody primarily involved comes away unhappy. This is because it's primarily about maintaining social order for the benefit of most people. You mightn't "win" at one particular moment in time (e.g. get the ****in scumbag sent to jail for 20 years for burgling you) but all up society benefits from reasonably holding criminals to account whilst trying to restore them and the victim. 

 

The previous sentence is the correct theoretical standpoint. In reality, western politicians have specialised in offering ever longer sentences that cost a bundle but achieve **** all, all the while spending little on offender rehab or assistance towards victims. Yet many people want to pour ever more money down the drain to sentence people to ever longer terms. The illogicality of this is staggering.


dejadeadnz
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  #2550315 26-Aug-2020 20:06
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avaiki:

 

Can I suggest reading up on the experience from another country which went through a similar if not arguably worse experience, i.e. Norway?

 

Rather than seek to cover up the motivations of the shooter, he was allowed to conduct his case under a full blaze of media attention, and scrutiny, allowing the entire spectrum of his beliefs to be picked apart by the entire population. As a journalist, I have to agree with claims that sunlight is much better than no sunlight when it comes to handling injustice.

 

Published yesterday, this article is headlined:

"Dear Christchurch, Breivik's trial showed us extremist ideas struggle in the light"

 

 

Most semi-informed people are broadly aware of the outlines of Brevik's trial. In this case, you weren't ever going to get a trial -- the guy pleaded guilty. Sunlight is excellent but also only when you've got an education system that produces a population that is broadly reasonably literate and have the ability to do some complex reasoning -- wouldn't exactly put NZ in this category. I'd personally support the production of informed material/assessment of the guy, his motivations, and where things went wrong but of the usual major media, the only ones I'd think are capable of doing a reasonable job of this would be RNZ and the investigative journalists in North & South or The Listener (let's hope they come back). What the Herald and Stuff have produced on the guy have mostly been "OMG ordinary guy when young. Somehow he went off his rockers! OMG."

 

 


dejadeadnz
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  #2550703 27-Aug-2020 14:11
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Well, the predictable happened. Life without parole. I tend to agree with the lawyer appointed to assist the court -- the sentence should have been a finite non-parole period. A full life sentence gives the losers that admire him some platform to give him a "first" for his sacrifice or whatever. Even if he could have been released, in reality he never would be until he is practically dead. Either way, the rest of the planet that's normal can now forget about him.

 

 


freitasm
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  #2550705 27-Aug-2020 14:14
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I just hope there is no chance of accessing the Internet - no computer, no phone, no tablets. Only TV and books. And that's more than enough.





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dejadeadnz
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  #2550706 27-Aug-2020 14:20
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freitasm:

 

I just hope there is no chance of accessing the Internet - no computer, no phone, no tablets. Only TV and books. And that's more than enough.

 

 

I can't see him not being a high security prisoner who will be kept in solitary confinement for a long time. He certainly won't be anywhere near a computer or similar devices.

 

 


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  #2550709 27-Aug-2020 14:24
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dejadeadnz:

 

freitasm:

 

I just hope there is no chance of accessing the Internet - no computer, no phone, no tablets. Only TV and books. And that's more than enough.

 

 

I can't see him not being a high security prisoner who will be kept in solitary confinement for a long time. He certainly won't be anywhere near a computer or similar devices.

 

 

We are never surprised to read on the news "Corrections apologises for inmate with Internet access"...

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/321393/victim-irate-as-burglar-posts-on-facebook-from-prison 

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/87979270/cellphones-in-cells-wellington-prisoner-updates-social-media-chats-with-friends-from-behind-bars

 

There's always an idiot who don't follow the rules...





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