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  # 2200832 18-Mar-2019 14:48
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If so then, where are the other 3 AR15s


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  # 2200833 18-Mar-2019 14:49
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Fred99:

 

His firm sold all 4 AR15s, and ammunition to the mass murderer.

 

No doubt conducted perfectly legally - but an unforgivably irresponsible thing to do.

 

 

 

 

What? Would one be ok? If he bought them all from different stores and still had 4, is that some how less bad? 


 
 
 
 




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  # 2200834 18-Mar-2019 14:50
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Refusing to debate "gun control" issues live - he diverted from a question by stating what seem to be a practiced defensive argument that he followed the laws enacted by the government we elected (at the time).  That shifts blame to "us".

 

He's used an extremely loaded argument - claiming that his grandson (this reinforces the "Good Family Man" illusion) said "grandpa, why do people blame the guns when it was done by a crazy man"

Just FWIW, the "crazy man" description must not be used to describe the offender.  He was sane enough to spend a considerable amount of time and effort into planning and training to do what he did, he's primarily a cold calculating terrorist and/or mass murderer,  a fascist, allied to the alt right and other identitarian ideologies of hate.

 

Prattled on about hanging drawing and quartering and burning Guy Fawkes.


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  # 2200838 18-Mar-2019 14:51
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Ill give up as its just twisting to be right. I'd rather screw it up and admit im wrong than make it up to be right

 

Back to a normal post, I will watch with interest as he is involved in the gun law changes, which IMHO are a small part of this overall issue. The key issue is background checks, intelligence, as having a clean record is now not enough


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  # 2200840 18-Mar-2019 14:53
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Fred99:

 

Refusing to debate "gun control" issues live - he diverted from a question by stating what seem to be a practiced defensive argument that he followed the laws enacted by the government we elected (at the time).  That shifts blame to "us".

 

He's used an extremely loaded argument - claiming that his grandson (this reinforces the "Good Family Man" illusion) said "grandpa, why do people blame the guns when it was done by a crazy man"

Just FWIW, the "crazy man" description must not be used to describe the offender.  He was sane enough to spend a considerable amount of time and effort into planning and training to do what he did, he's primarily a cold calculating terrorist and/or mass murderer,  a fascist, allied to the alt right and other identitarian ideologies of hate.

 

Prattled on about hanging drawing and quartering and burning Guy Fawkes.

 

 

If you expect a 6 year old to be able to make that differentiation, you must know some crazy smart and complex 6 year olds.

 

He was right to refuse to discuss gun control, live, 48 hours after the attack when people are clearly emotional and based on what I am seeing in this forum alone, making some pretty illogical arguments. It would have been a circus, and wouldn't have acheived anything and just been bad all round. 

 

I didn't agree with everything he said, and I struggled to hear some of the questions, but I thought he availed himself largely, better than I expected.

 

 




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  # 2200841 18-Mar-2019 14:54
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networkn:

 

Fred99:

 

His firm sold all 4 AR15s, and ammunition to the mass murderer.

 

No doubt conducted perfectly legally - but an unforgivably irresponsible thing to do.

 

 

 

 

What? Would one be ok? If he bought them all from different stores and still had 4, is that some how less bad? 

 

 

That's my mistake, the news feed I was reading first misreported that he bought 4x ARs, but they weren't kitted out to class E restriction (but could be if they were modified).


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  # 2200844 18-Mar-2019 14:56
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Fred99:

 

Refusing to debate "gun control" issues live - he diverted from a question by stating what seem to be a practiced defensive argument that he followed the laws enacted by the government we elected (at the time).  That shifts blame to "us".

 

He's used an extremely loaded argument - claiming that his grandson (this reinforces the "Good Family Man" illusion) said "grandpa, why do people blame the guns when it was done by a crazy man"

Just FWIW, the "crazy man" description must not be used to describe the offender.  He was sane enough to spend a considerable amount of time and effort into planning and training to do what he did, he's primarily a cold calculating terrorist and/or mass murderer,  a fascist, allied to the alt right and other identitarian ideologies of hate.

 

Prattled on about hanging drawing and quartering and burning Guy Fawkes.

 

 

Most of what you say is quite right.

 

Do we want a gun debate with suppliers, Police, Government and other key parties or shall we do it on TV with journo's seeking a  story, when its raw for many of us?  Thats not a good call.

 

He will give you your debate, he will be involved, as they are the biggest importer, with the overall gun law issue with Government 


 
 
 
 


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  # 2200845 18-Mar-2019 14:59
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He looked to me to be genuinely distressed at what has happened. He wasn't obliged to appear and did so anyway. I didn't see him particularly grinding an axe.

 

I missed the start. What was said about the sign and are they going to remove or destroy it?

 

 




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  # 2200846 18-Mar-2019 15:00
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networkn:

 

If you expect a 6 year old to be able to make that differentiation, you must know some crazy smart and complex 6 year olds.

 

 

The 6 year old wasn't there.  That part sounded like a sermon to me, you know, "earthly stories with heavenly meaning", aka BS.


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  # 2200847 18-Mar-2019 15:05
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The symptoms of the the present problem are totally and emphatically unacceptable, with 50 people killed, and we need to take a very good, very hard look at the causal factors. The cause is yet to be analysed and determined, so solutions proposed at this time are premature - they might turn out be correct or incorrect, popular or unpopular, but one thing is certain and that is that they will be incomplete.

 

I would caution anyone from thinking that banning guns will 'solve the problem'. 

 

The biggest threat to safety is believing that there is no threat, and if that fact is not echoing loudly in NZ at the moment, you need to wake up a read last Saturday News Paper. This does not pertain exclusively to guns.

 

This guy is being written this guy off as "a nutter" to whom no attention should be paid and I certainly agree that he should not be rewarded in any way, shape or form with publicity, however, if we shut the details behind the creation of this person out of our decision making process and get distracted by his tools, then we are more than likely less safe, because while we may have address the availability of the instruments of his crime to a law abiding person, we won't have actually addressed the problem.

 

Laws mean nothing to these people. Despite already being banned, this guys had other instruments of murder in his possession (explosives) which he could have easily used to kill as many people (as seen almost daily in other countries). One thing that can be guaranteed is that if we don't get it right, there will be successors to this guy and they will use which ever destructive tools they can lay their hands on, legally or illegally. 

 

So the moral is, don't loose sight of the true problem.

 

(Disclosure: I don't like guns and I have never owned any).  


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  # 2200848 18-Mar-2019 15:05
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Fred99:

 

networkn:

 

If you expect a 6 year old to be able to make that differentiation, you must know some crazy smart and complex 6 year olds.

 

 

The 6 year old wasn't there.  That part sounded like a sermon to me, you know, "earthly stories with heavenly meaning", aka BS.

 

 

/me shrug, who knows, I find it better to give people the benefit of the doubt.

 

"Normal" AR15 owners don't massacre people.

 

In a casual reference I might refer to him as crazy, but the reality is much much more complex. We don't yet know, but I suspect he was isolated and identified as being susecptible to radicalization and this is where it started.

 

 


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  # 2200851 18-Mar-2019 15:08
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networkn:

 

He looked to me to be genuinely distressed at what has happened. He wasn't obliged to appear and did so anyway. I didn't see him particularly grinding an axe.

 

I missed the start. What was said about the sign and are they going to remove or destroy it?

 

 

 

 

Deal with that very shortly or words to that effect. I think he said he came back from Europe Saturday. IMO despite his dodgy past, and the desire to protect his business, this isn't lost on him. When he was asked if he would have sold the guns to the person if he knew who he was, that was sick. This gun debate needs to be put aside for a few weeks  if those types of tactics are going to be used. It needs to be discussed heavily, but factually and sensibly




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  # 2200861 18-Mar-2019 15:24
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networkn:

 

Fred99:

 

networkn:

 

If you expect a 6 year old to be able to make that differentiation, you must know some crazy smart and complex 6 year olds.

 

 

The 6 year old wasn't there.  That part sounded like a sermon to me, you know, "earthly stories with heavenly meaning", aka BS.

 

 

/me shrug, who knows, I find it better to give people the benefit of the doubt.

 

"Normal" AR15 owners don't massacre people.

 

In a casual reference I might refer to him as crazy, but the reality is much much more complex. We don't yet know, but I suspect he was isolated and identified as being susecptible to radicalization and this is where it started.

 

 

 

 

Sounded incredibly pre-prepared and vetted by a crisis management adviser and lawyers to me.  There's a lot of money at stake here.

 

I'd plead that he's not referred to as crazy, it excuses him of some culpability for his actions.  It's also what happens in America - any Muslim murderers are perceived as "terrorists" all white mass-murderers are merely crazy.

 

Sure I agree that he was probably isolated and identified and radicalised by others.  And that's a big problem.  We (in the west) managed to suppress ISIL propaganda reasonably effectively when we tried.  The USA is hosting websites that identify and recruit hard-right extremists.  How could that be?




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  # 2200916 18-Mar-2019 16:58
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tdgeek:

 

He will give you your debate, he will be involved, as they are the biggest importer, with the overall gun law issue with Government 

 

 

I'd to see him, gun clubs, other industry insiders, and anybody else who's ever been associated with or lobbied for the NRA or any affiliated or similar organisation excluded from any formal debate. 

 

The entire world is looking at NZ right now, and this "local debate" has global consequences.

 

NZ is going to get hit so hard by particularly US organisations like the NRA and affiliated entities, as what NZ does will impact on gun-law sentiment in the USA - and AFAIK we're totally unprepared to deal with it.  They'll come from all angles, social media, advertisements, lobbying.

 

David Tipple owns a shop that sells guns.  He is not an expert on any relevant issue - only possibly some technical/commercial ones.  He's an industry spokesperson who expounds NRA style rhetoric, and his contribution will be thinly veiled propaganda to lobby support from fanatic gun owners and "the undecided".  That is not needed, and should not be facilitated.


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  # 2200919 18-Mar-2019 17:06
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Fred99:

tdgeek:


He will give you your debate, he will be involved, as they are the biggest importer, with the overall gun law issue with Government 



I'd to see him, gun clubs, other industry insiders, and anybody else who's ever been associated with or lobbied for the NRA or any affiliated or similar organisation excluded from any formal debate. 


The entire world is looking at NZ right now, and this "local debate" has global consequences.


NZ is going to get hit so hard by particularly US organisations like the NRA and affiliated entities, as what NZ does will impact on gun-law sentiment in the USA - and AFAIK we're totally unprepared to deal with it.  They'll come from all angles, social media, advertisements, lobbying.


David Tipple owns a shop that sells guns.  He is not an expert on any relevant issue - only possibly some technical/commercial ones.  He's an industry spokesperson who expounds NRA style rhetoric, and his contribution will be thinly veiled propaganda to lobby support from fanatic gun owners and "the undecided".  That is not needed, and should not be facilitated.



If he or anyone else takes on an NRA attitude yes they should be shut down and excluded. If this wasn’t the raw issue it is you would expect everyone to defend their business, recreation and so on. That’s what we do. Back soon JA about to go live on this

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