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Handle9
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  #2203471 22-Mar-2019 17:06
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Paul1977:

 

This thread seems to be a good example as to why a helpful discussion about latent racism never seems to go anywhere.

 

I feel like the point that @solutionz was trying to make was that, perhaps, sometimes things that can be interpreted as racist don't always have racist motivations behind them. Perhaps @solutionz is erring too far to the side of "let's give them the benefit of the doubt", but the way he was attacked and shutdown for his opinion was unnecessary in my opinion.

 

Do I agree with everything he said? No. Can I see the point he was wanting to make? I think so.

 

I thought long and hard if I should post in this thread for fear of being vilified as racist (or an apologist for racism) for saying anything that may not 100% agree with some of the more vocal Geekzoners. In itself that makes me wonder how a meaningful discussion can ever happen when there can be so much fear about simply having the discussion.

 

It's easy (and proper) to outright condemn obvious racism, but for real change to happen we need to be able to discuss the the far more prevalent latent and sub-conscious racism.

 

 

There's a couple of aspects here. Understanding the mood of the room is pretty important. This is a pretty tricky topic and more so at the moment.

 

What makes me incredibly angry is the questioning of Bhosales motive. There is also the implication that her husband can't recognize racism. 

 

This is how racism gets diminished. I don't think it's ok and I don't feel it should be accepted.

 

 


Paul1977
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  #2203505 22-Mar-2019 17:39
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Fred99:

 

Too damned right you'd be vilified if you said something racist.

 

But get one thing very clear, the poster was presented with a news article written by a person who'd witnessed racism against a loved one where, in her opinion, the racism was directed at her husband was "generally from privileged white people". Well - knock me down with a feather. 

 

The response was, to paraphrase; that it's really not fair to single out white people, and that the woman who wrote the article must be telling fibs and that poster didn't seem to believe it.  Damned inappropriate things to say - bordering on identitarian alt right ideologically driven knee-jerkism.  Better to STFU and say nothing at all.

 

Then doubled down on that abject BS way of thinking. 

 

So tell me, on a thread about racism, blatant / casual, at what point would you draw the line and "do the right thing".

 

 

@Fred99 I didn't read the article, as it wasn't linked, so I can't comment on any specifics in that regard. Feel free to link it and I'll happily read it, but I don't know that it will change my opinion of the unnecessarily harsh backlash another poster in this thread received.

 

In regards to your comment above (which I bolded), I think you should re-read what I said. I said I was afraid of being vilified for simply not agreeing 100% with some of the members here; that is quite different to being appropriately vilified for racism.

 

It seems to me that you are inferring things that were never written in other peoples comments, and then vilifying them suggesting they support the alt-right and that they might be "beyond redemption". You said this to a non-white person for merely suggesting that sometimes people can see racism when it may not actually be there, and that racism isn't exclusive to white people.

 

No-one is saying that racism doesn't exist in New Zealand, and no-one in this thread is condoning racism.

 

Just because someone doesn't share all of your opinions doesn't mean they are automatically an alt-right racist.

 

EDIT: I have now read the article and have commented on a couple of specifics a couple of posts down.


Paul1977
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  #2203534 22-Mar-2019 18:11
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Handle9:

 

There's a couple of aspects here. Understanding the mood of the room is pretty important. This is a pretty tricky topic and more so at the moment.

 

What makes me incredibly angry is the questioning of Bhosales motive. There is also the implication that her husband can't recognize racism. 

 

This is how racism gets diminished. I don't think it's ok and I don't feel it should be accepted.

 

 

Fair enough, but how can a proper discussion start when an alternate viewpoint is shutdown so harshly? If someone had entered the thread making obviously racist comments that would be different, but I don't feel like this was the case here.

 

I just read the Herald article in question, and I personally don't see any reason to question the motives of the author.

 

Most of the instances described probably are racist. The Home Show example could just be rudeness, it would be impossible to say without knowing how those same people treated the other vendors at they show, but probably racist.

 

The lady asking "Are they even allowed to buy coffee in here?" I would dearly like to believe wasn't racism, but rather a belief that contractors etc may not normally drink with the customers. I want to believe that as it just seems unfathomable that someone would be asking because of their race. However even that was her belief, would she have asked the question if he had been white? I really don't know.

 

None of this changed my opinion that the previous poster in this forum was unnecessarily vilified.




Handle9
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  #2203545 22-Mar-2019 18:38
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@solutionz

 

I'm presuming you've read what I've written in this thread already. I've addressed the majority of your questions already. 

 

The way you have written your questions are implying burden of evidence that isn't possible, or desirable, in the type of article that was written. It was a pretty simple personal account of what an individual family puts up with on a daily basis. I'm making the assumption that most people can understand the difference between a personal account like this and understand what it means. I'm also making the assumption that generally the authors husband can recognize racism. This type of personal account will never have a judicial level of evidence as that wouldn't make it personal, it would be a long dry treatise.

 

The account feels real to me and consistent with what I see in our society. 

 

The purpose is to highlight what people who are not from the dominant culture (ie white people) put up with on a daily basis. Many New Zealanders have no clue, or are in denial, about what others deal with. We think we are a friendly inviting society for immigrants when often we aren't.

 

I don't see what the problem is with saying that the biggest problem group is pakeha or white people. It happens to be true and the whole unconscious bias topic is a large one that a lot of people don't want to acknowledge. If we can't be honest and call out what is happening then it won't change. I'm not prepared to accept that.


Handle9
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  #2203548 22-Mar-2019 18:48
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Paul1977:

 

Handle9:

 

There's a couple of aspects here. Understanding the mood of the room is pretty important. This is a pretty tricky topic and more so at the moment.

 

What makes me incredibly angry is the questioning of Bhosales motive. There is also the implication that her husband can't recognize racism. 

 

This is how racism gets diminished. I don't think it's ok and I don't feel it should be accepted.

 

 

Fair enough, but how can a proper discussion start when an alternate viewpoint is shutdown so harshly? If someone had entered the thread making obviously racist comments that would be different, but I don't feel like this was the case here.

 

I just read the Herald article in question, and I personally don't see any reason to question the motives of the author.

 

Most of the instances described probably are racist. The Home Show example could just be rudeness, it would be impossible to say without knowing how those same people treated the other vendors at they show, but probably racist.

 

The lady asking "Are they even allowed to buy coffee in here?" I would dearly like to believe wasn't racism, but rather a belief that contractors etc may not normally drink with the customers. I want to believe that as it just seems unfathomable that someone would be asking because of their race. However even that was her belief, would she have asked the question if he had been white? I really don't know.

 

None of this changed my opinion that the previous poster in this forum was unnecessarily vilified.

 

 

I'm often provocative when I feel strongly about something and I'm pretty comfortable with that. I've written in another thread that I've ignored a lot of this sort of stuff previously as I haven't wanted the confrontation. IMO that is part of the problem.

 

I think we can all understand nuance to some degree. IMO putting a prosecutorial burden of truth on this type of account and then questioning the authors motives is nonsense. 

 

Could I have written it differently, sure, but I also stand behind the general sentiment.


Fred99
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  #2203554 22-Mar-2019 19:16
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solutionz:

 

Don't worry I don't feel "attacked and shutdown" by the two users (who don't seem to add too much this "tech community" beyond their on soapbox posts) as many more have actually supported my posts (and PM'd) but yes I think their attempts to paint me as a racist are a bit OTT.

 

....

 

I think if Fred99 and Handle9 had a genuine interest in promoting cultural tolerance / stemming low level racism

 

 

I feel obliged to reply to that.

 

As for what I've bolded/italicised, this is the politics forum - so get over yourself.

 

The next quoted text, you're trying to be as "politely offensive" as you can without risking a ban. 

 

Nobody "painted you as a racist".  You painted yourself into a untenable position, then doubled down on it, and you still can't see.

 

Actually I suspect you can, you make a post - which sure has the appearance of being an apologist or denialist for reported apparent racism in a media article, and are arguing that it's not acceptable to criticise what you did - to deny it was real or happened - as to criticise that you would be "stirring racial division".

 

Tell me - how can this be?

 

 

 

 


freitasm
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  #2203614 22-Mar-2019 20:06
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One person banned. If you can't behave people, you are out.




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dejadeadnz
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  #2203616 22-Mar-2019 20:11
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Well done -- one troll that people won't have to put up with any more.

 

 

 

 


freitasm
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  #2203617 22-Mar-2019 20:12
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Banned another person in the gun law discussion who thought it would be cool to let people know he disagrees when I use the word racism when referring to the NRA.




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