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  # 2278655 18-Jul-2019 08:25
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Dingbatt: I’m still unsure as to how the figure of $80000 was arrived at.
Was it because they decided that $8000 would be the maximum rebate and that is 10%?
Or did they look at the new electric vehicles on offer at the moment and discovered you can get the base model of the Kona, eNiro and Model 3 for under the cutoff, but if you want something better in those models (including getting all the safety features) then you are obviously rich and don’t need (deserve) any help.
Or is it pressure on the manufacturers to provide more models under that magic figure?

Personally I don’t think there should be an upper limit for BEVs. Since I am in the minority that pay the majority of tax in NZ, I would see the rebate as a reward for moving things along and putting up with the inconveniences associated with EV ownership.

Where I may differ from the EV zealots is that I can see the value in the rebates for hybrids. Even the full hybrids (non plugin) save fuel = less emissions. From my own experience when looking to buy the new RAV 4, the difference between the ICE and the Full Hybrid versions of pretty much all Toyota models is $3000-4000. So the rebate means you have to ask “why wouldn’t you go for the hybrid?” I drive a Toyota hybrid and am sold on the technology but I do wish they offered more of their models as plug-ins.

 

This issue was discussed earlier in the thread titled:

 

NZ Government Incentives Coming Soon for Buyers of Electric Vehicles

 

My post on the $80,000 cut-off limit was as follows:

 

It's interesting that vehicles with a retail price of $80,000 or more would not be eligible for discounts. It's stated that "this cut off is to prevent the scheme transferring wealth to New Zealanders who are able to buy vehicles that cost $80,000 or more".

 

So, if you buy a new EV for $78,000, such as the non-elite 64 kWh Hyundai Kona, you get an $8,000 discount, but if you buy the Elite Kona for $84,000, you get no discount.

 

So, in this example, the non-elite Kona will have its cost reduced to $70,000, but the elite Kona will stay at $84,000. Therefore, instead of costing just $6,000 more than the non-elite Kona, the elite model would cost $14,000 more!

 

But, you have to admit that both of these vehicles are contributing equally to our emissions targets, so to make an arbitrary cut-off point of $80,000 makes no sense to me!

 

So, what will happen, will Hyundai reduce the price of the elite model to $79,999 so that it qualifies for the $8,000 discount?

 

Or, could some of the extras, such as leather heated seats be added in after purchase for an additional payment, of say, $4,000 so that the vehicle can be sold for $79,999 and qualify for the discount?

 

So, why not just abolish the idea of a retail price maximum for discount purposes, and accept that, whether a new EV costs $60,000 or $160,000, both are helping to meet our emissions targets and both vehicles will eventually flow through to the second-hand markets?

 

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=162&topicid=240755&page_no=49#2272597

 

I've read quite a few comments from people on FB about this issue and there's a feeling that the $80,000 cut-off limit was political, in that a Labour, NZ First, Greens coalition, which is supposed to be more concerned about lower income earners than the National Party, couldn't be seen to be "giving" money to people who purchase very expensive EVs. But, it's unlikely that the National Party would have worried about putting in such a nonsensical limit.

 

In fact, it's quite surprising that the present Government even went as high as $80,000, I was expecting them to go to about $50,000 and say anyone who bought an EV for more than that was too wealthy to give a subsidy to! This whole "wealth" argument is completely contrary to the overall purpose of any EV discount scheme, which is to reduce emissions, and all EVs do this, no matter what they cost!

 

The most surprising thing of all is that the Govt proposes to give discounts to certain low-emitting "purely petrol" vehicles, such as the Suzuki Swift. No other country in the word has done this for obvious reasons. In any event, the Suzuki Swift is now said to be not a particularly safe vehicle, so why is the Govt prepared to provide a discount for buying a petrol vehicle that isn't particularly safe?


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  # 2278664 18-Jul-2019 08:44
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frednz:

 

 

 

I've read quite a few comments from people on FB about this issue and there's a feeling that the $80,000 cut-off limit was political, in that a Labour, NZ First, Greens coalition, which is supposed to be more concerned about lower income earners than the National Party, couldn't be seen to be "giving" money to people who purchase very expensive EVs. But, it's unlikely that the National Party would have worried about putting in such a nonsensical limit.

 

In fact, it's quite surprising that the present Government even went as high as $80,000, I was expecting them to go to about $50,000 and say anyone who bought an EV for more than that was too wealthy to give a subsidy to! This whole "wealth" argument is completely contrary to the overall purpose of any EV discount scheme, which is to reduce emissions, and all EVs do this, no matter what they cost!

 

The most surprising thing of all is that the Govt proposes to give discounts to certain low-emitting "purely petrol" vehicles, such as the Suzuki Swift. No other country in the word has done this for obvious reasons. In any event, the Suzuki Swift is now said to be not a particularly safe vehicle, so why is the Govt prepared to provide a discount for buying a petrol vehicle that isn't particularly safe?

 

 

Do you have a link to confirm your political comments are factual? I x cant find a policy from the Opposition

 

Look at it this way

 

1. 8k is no incentive for what is a very expensive vehicle. If its no incentive then its a waste of money. If 8k on a 60k car is a 13% subsidy, perhaps we could make it a 13% subsidy for all BEV's? So a 160k BEV gets $21000 discount? Is that a silly idea? Yes it is, so therefore subsidies over 80k are as well for the same basic maths reason . To make that cutoff easier, I would use a sliding scale so that there is no anomaly on a 79999 car and a 80000 car, as there is now

 

2. If the limit is raised, that will increase the subsidy costs and therefore reduce the number of EV's that can be subsidised, so the scheme would cease sooner, therefore reducing the number of EV's that save emissions

 

Making the subsidy unlimited would have the opposite effect to what all of us want, more EV's on the roads


 
 
 
 


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  # 2278669 18-Jul-2019 08:50
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

Do you have a link to confirm your political comments are factual? I x cant find a policy from the Opposition

 

 

 

 

All I said was "it's unlikely that the National Party would have worried about putting in such a nonsensical limit", I didn't say that this was published National policy!!!


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  # 2278687 18-Jul-2019 09:03
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frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

Do you have a link to confirm your political comments are factual? I x cant find a policy from the Opposition

 

 

 

 

All I said was "it's unlikely that the National Party would have worried about putting in such a nonsensical limit", I didn't say that this was published National policy!!!

 

 

Well, you are making it political. I didn't say it was a published policy bit you made it look like it was a clear fact so I just asked. Nonsensical? I guess that covers a lot. As I commented, making the discount unlimited, and not capped, means that there will be less EV;s on the road. As an piddly 8k on a 160k car wont get that new 160k EV on the road, but it might help the 59k EV get purchased. If we support wealthy people buying 160k cars, the scheme will run out sooner, thus less EV's on the roads. I dont see this as nonsensical

 

I do hope National releases a policy, as in due course we need to vote on that. What I have seen is that its just a policy that they will help reduce climate change, thats it. If the recent policy by the coalition is nonsensical i would have expected National to put their own superior policy into the media 


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  # 2278696 18-Jul-2019 09:27
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I will be interested to see the unintended consequences of this announcement, particularly signalling it so far in advance. From a personal perspective, it has made me put off the idea of going electric this year or trading in our ICE second car on another hybrid.
I understand that they want to be able to go into the next election offering this ‘carrot/stick’ but what it will probably mean is increased ICE purchases next year and electric/hybrid purchases pushed into 2021. It won’t surprise me, if the treasury benches remain with the current coalition, that car companies raise their prices for ‘green’ cars on 1 Jan 21 “due to increased worldwide demand for batteries”. Essentially the tax will go directly to the car companies. This may be avoided by making the rebate a tax credit for the private buyer. The armchair economists here may be able to comment.

My dream car for a long time was a Mustang, although recently I had been seduced by Tesla (particularly the Model 3). Maybe I should get my Mustang after all before the price goes up.




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  # 2278697 18-Jul-2019 09:29
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Going to put together a submission on this this weekend;

 

Want to be sure we see:

 

1) Tax Credit applied at first registration, would capture private imports that way too and provide some relief to dealers just upping prices. 

 

2) An exemption system for classic cars or of significant historical interest - we currently have this but it needs looking at. The moving twenty year rule is about to let in a bunch of 2000-era Corollas and people-movers of no significant motoring stature which is wrong. 

 

3) The subsidy should absolutely cut off at $80K as we don't need to throwing taxpayer cash at people who can afford to drop that much on a new car. If it is to be extended that it should definitely be on a sliding scale and abate more aggressively at the lower end and tail off the higher you go. It's about getting more EVs on the road, not getting more flash EVs on the road. 

 

4) Consideration of FBT reform to remove the supposed issues around double-cab utes that can be rolled out when the alternatives hit the market.

 

5) Consideration given to whether converted cars are eligible for the used-car subsidy or GST zero-rated for EV components to be used for conversions.


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  # 2278722 18-Jul-2019 09:47
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Dingbatt: I will be interested to see the unintended consequences of this announcement, particularly signalling it so far in advance. From a personal perspective, it has made me put off the idea of going electric this year or trading in our ICE second car on another hybrid.
I understand that they want to be able to go into the next election offering this ‘carrot/stick’ but what it will probably mean is increased ICE purchases next year and electric/hybrid purchases pushed into 2021. It won’t surprise me, if the treasury benches remain with the current coalition, that car companies raise their prices for ‘green’ cars on 1 Jan 21 “due to increased worldwide demand for batteries”. Essentially the tax will go directly to the car companies. This may be avoided by making the rebate a tax credit for the private buyer. The armchair economists here may be able to comment.

My dream car for a long time was a Mustang, although recently I had been seduced by Tesla (particularly the Model 3). Maybe I should get my Mustang after all before the price goes up.

 

Im not sure what lead time would be easy to implement. Me, I favour the Camaro SS. 

 

Car prices are known today. If a Dingbatt 325 was $61250 today and magically became 67995 when the scheme kicks in, that would be a problem. But unless all car manufacturers (we can look at overseas price trends) or dealers (we can look at overseas price trends) cartelled this, then the bad boys would be seen so customers go to the next dealer/car


 
 
 
 


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  # 2278723 18-Jul-2019 09:48
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Dingbatt:

My dream car for a long time was a Mustang, although recently I had been seduced by Tesla (particularly the Model 3). Maybe I should get my Mustang after all before the price goes up.

 

 

 

My dream car is still a Subaru Impreza WRX STi with manual transmission. When the EV version is released I will sell a kidney to get it. Sadly though, Subaru are all aboard the Toyota train so I'm about as likely to get a real EV Subaru WRX before the collapse of civilisation as I am an F-18.





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


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  # 2278724 18-Jul-2019 09:49
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GV27:

 

 

 

5) Consideration given to whether converted cars are eligible for the used-car subsidy or GST zero-rated for EV components to be used for conversions.

 

 

I want us to foster refits. If a person can avoid a 60k car and spend 25 on their 2yo nice ICE car that's another way to populate the streets. Ive got no idea what a 40kW refit would cost


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  # 2278730 18-Jul-2019 09:58
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Yes, I agree. I said that EV conversions should be subject to rebates too in my submission.





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  # 2278761 18-Jul-2019 10:34
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SaltyNZ:

 

Dingbatt:

My dream car for a long time was a Mustang, although recently I had been seduced by Tesla (particularly the Model 3). Maybe I should get my Mustang after all before the price goes up.

 

 

 

My dream car is still a Subaru Impreza WRX STi with manual transmission. When the EV version is released I will sell a kidney to get it. Sadly though, Subaru are all aboard the Toyota train so I'm about as likely to get a real EV Subaru WRX before the collapse of civilisation as I am an F-18.

 

 

I'm never selling my Mitsi EVO 6. I don't care how much it costs to run or what it does to the environment.

 

It's the most fun I get with my clothes on.


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  # 2278767 18-Jul-2019 10:47
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SaltyNZ:

 

My dream car is still a Subaru Impreza WRX STi with manual transmission. When the EV version is released I will sell a kidney to get it. Sadly though, Subaru are all aboard the Toyota train so I'm about as likely to get a real EV Subaru WRX before the collapse of civilisation as I am an F-18.

 

 

Toyota have supposedly inked a deal with CATL in the last few weeks to produce batteries and are supposedly working towards commercially-viable solid state by 2020. It could still happen. I'm as desperate for an Electric GT-FOUR as you are for an STi, trust me. 




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  # 2278825 18-Jul-2019 11:49
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Dingbatt: I will be interested to see the unintended consequences of this announcement, particularly signalling it so far in advance. From a personal perspective, it has made me put off the idea of going electric this year or trading in our ICE second car on another hybrid.


Me too. Waiting till subsidy kicks in.

The government may want to consider subsidy on electric motorcycles.

I'd expect the new Harley LiveWire motorcycle will be around NZD $45,000.

Many large electric motorcycles are in the NZD $30,000 range.

I'd much rather have a neighbor drive up in his quiet Harley LiveWire than any existing one, except this:


https://www.waltscycle.com/product/gt-velo-glide-ultra-harley-davidson-1870.htm

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  # 2278876 18-Jul-2019 12:29
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kingdragonfly:
Dingbatt: I will be interested to see the unintended consequences of this announcement, particularly signalling it so far in advance. From a personal perspective, it has made me put off the idea of going electric this year or trading in our ICE second car on another hybrid.


Me too. Waiting till subsidy kicks in.

 

If people are waiting until 2021 until a subsidy kicks in, then you'd have to say that the policy is a political mess, because it's causing people to drive petrol vehicles for a lot longer than would have been the case if the policy had been implemented, say, later this year!

 

But, I suppose it takes a lot of careful research and consultation to implement a policy like this, so we shouldn't be too hard on the poor old Greens. Now, at least we all know that if you're buying an EV you're not going to get a discount this year or next year. 

 

So, if you really are a person dedicated to help us reduce our emissions, if you can afford to buy one now, should you really wait until 2021 to buy your EV just to save up to $8,000 on the purchase price?

 

Perhaps our submissions should ask for this proposal to be implemented a lot sooner than intended, and in particular, to exclude the proposal to subsidise petrol vehicles, such as the Suzuki Swift.

 

Waiting until 2021 so that you can buy a Suzuki Swift at a discounted price is surely an awful decision for a Greenie to make?


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  # 2278893 18-Jul-2019 12:53
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Its fair to see if they can implement this sooner

 

I think a new Swift is a better option than a 1984 Telstar, so its a valid option that reduces emissions. The Swift buyer wont be queuing up for an EV


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