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  # 2283393 25-Jul-2019 12:46
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SJB:

GV27:


elpenguino:


I simply can't understand Brexiteer's aversion to the European parliament. As the world battles with serious problems like climate change, countries need to work together more, not less.



Because the idea of working with people you continue to willingly hold onto age-old stereotypes about (distrustful Germans, lazy Greeks, corrupt Italians) is something they can't do unless they choose to move out of the 1950s. 


It sounds dumb, but watch any sport where a British athlete ends up against a German rival. It quickly becomes unwatchable for anyone who doesn't buy into 'British is best' jingoistic rubbish. 



Can I assume that neither of you were born in Britain?


Britons that I knew in the many years I lived there never felt part of the European project. Most felt they had been conned into it by Edward Heath, the PM at the time, who was a through and through Europhile. When the referendum to join was carried out it was referendum on joining a trade organization not a political one.


The change to a political organization was made by various treaties  between the member countries over the next couple of decades and the question of whether the people wanted that change was never tested by another referendum in Britain. More and more powers were devolved to the EU without the population ever being asked if that was OK with them.


It would be like New Zealand joining the TPPA and then 10 years later it transforms itself into a political organization without getting the  agreement of any of the people. New Zealand  then  finds itself partly governed by faceless bureaucrats in Seoul or Melbourne. I don't think that would go down too well.


The issue of countries working together does not rely on the existence of the EU. In some case it could be a hindrance when trying to get the 27 member states to agree on an approach to a problem. That's unless you think it's OK for the EU to simply ride rough shod over local concerns to get their way.


Incidentally for a long time the European Parliament was just a talking shop with little actual power. That changed in 1999 when a scandal at the top level resulted in the entire EU commission resigning. The parliament now has broadly similar powers to the EU commissioners.


Your comment about sport sounds like it comes from the 1950's TBH. Nobody thinks or talks that way. The one sport where you might make that mistake is football where the rivalry between England and Germany is on a par with the All Blacks vs Australia or South Africa. But that is nothing to do with nationality and everything to do with the 1966 World Cup final and the subsequent World Cups where Germany always seemed to be knocking England out on penalties in the semi-final.


Unless you have a time machine and can experience the alternative no one can tell if Britain was better off joining the EU or not. Similarly, unless you have a crystal ball no one can tell if, in say 50 years, Britain would have been better off staying in or not.


 



The EU organisation is very complex and the decision making process is opaque. It makes decisions that definitely are not in its individual members best interests but are predicated on the benefit to the EU as a whole.

That said to suggest that the EU would give Britain a favourable deal to leave was naive at best or clueless) cynical at the worst.

Britain isn't a significant power anymore. It has a fairly big economy but one that is totally intertwined with Europe. Most businesses supply chains are built around an open Europe.

There is no benefit to the EU to give Britain a favourable exit so it will be painful. How Britain does that without breaking it's economy is anyone's guess.

Britain will have to face the fact that Brexit means significant short term pain. Until they accept that reality they will continue to go round in circles.

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  # 2283401 25-Jul-2019 13:09
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Handle9:

The EU organisation is very complex and the decision making process is opaque. It makes decisions that definitely are not in its individual members best interests but are predicated on the benefit to the EU as a whole.

That said to suggest that the EU would give Britain a favourable deal to leave was naive at best or clueless) cynical at the worst.

Britain isn't a significant power anymore. It has a fairly big economy but one that is totally intertwined with Europe. Most businesses supply chains are built around an open Europe.

There is no benefit to the EU to give Britain a favourable exit so it will be painful. How Britain does that without breaking it's economy is anyone's guess.

Britain will have to face the fact that Brexit means significant short term pain. Until they accept that reality they will continue to go round in circles.

 

 

And I think the part they have completely missed is that if the UK wishes to sell into the EU, they will STILL have to conform to the EU regulations, leaving the EU did not change this.


 
 
 
 


SJB

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  # 2283419 25-Jul-2019 13:29
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Handle9:
The EU organisation is very complex and the decision making process is opaque. It makes decisions that definitely are not in its individual members best interests but are predicated on the benefit to the EU as a whole.

.

 

Benefit of the whole EU maybe but I wonder if there's ever been a decision that was truly detrimental to the major players, France and Germany and even Britain who got opt outs for some really contentious issues.


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  # 2283436 25-Jul-2019 13:32
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SJB:

Handle9:
The EU organisation is very complex and the decision making process is opaque. It makes decisions that definitely are not in its individual members best interests but are predicated on the benefit to the EU as a whole.

.


Benefit of the whole EU maybe but I wonder if there's ever been a decision that was truly detrimental to the major players, France and Germany and even Britain who got opt outs for some really contentious issues.



The Siemens - Alstom merger got stopped this year despite the support of the German and French governments. This won't be beneficial to either economy.

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  # 2283447 25-Jul-2019 13:39
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sir1963:

 

And I think the part they have completely missed is that if the UK wishes to sell into the EU, they will STILL have to conform to the EU regulations, leaving the EU did not change this.

 

 

 

 

One important thing it does change however is that they will no longer have any say in the shaping of EU regulations.


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  # 2283450 25-Jul-2019 13:46
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Varkk:

 

sir1963:

 

And I think the part they have completely missed is that if the UK wishes to sell into the EU, they will STILL have to conform to the EU regulations, leaving the EU did not change this.

 

 

 

 

One important thing it does change however is that they will no longer have any say in the shaping of EU regulations.

 

 

So, the worst of both worlds? That worked out well.

 

back pats and fat pensions all round !


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  # 2283453 25-Jul-2019 13:50
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Varkk:

 

sir1963:

 

And I think the part they have completely missed is that if the UK wishes to sell into the EU, they will STILL have to conform to the EU regulations, leaving the EU did not change this.

 

 

 

 

One important thing it does change however is that they will no longer have any say in the shaping of EU regulations.

 

 

 

 

AND their universities are no longer eligible for EU research grants


 
 
 
 


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  # 2283454 25-Jul-2019 13:53
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elpenguino:

 

Varkk:

 

sir1963:

 

And I think the part they have completely missed is that if the UK wishes to sell into the EU, they will STILL have to conform to the EU regulations, leaving the EU did not change this.

 

 

 

 

One important thing it does change however is that they will no longer have any say in the shaping of EU regulations.

 

 

So, the worst of both worlds? That worked out well.

 

back pats and fat pensions all round !

 

 

 

 

What will be interesting is what happens to all of the people living abroad.

 

Will the EU allow all the ex-pats from the UK to stay, or will they take this as an opportunity to send them home and have the businesses, jobs and housing made available to all those refugees they have from Africa.


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  # 2283460 25-Jul-2019 14:05
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sir1963:

 

elpenguino:

 

Varkk:

 

sir1963:

 

And I think the part they have completely missed is that if the UK wishes to sell into the EU, they will STILL have to conform to the EU regulations, leaving the EU did not change this.

 

 

One important thing it does change however is that they will no longer have any say in the shaping of EU regulations.

 

 

So, the worst of both worlds? That worked out well.

 

back pats and fat pensions all round !

 

 

What will be interesting is what happens to all of the people living abroad.

 

Will the EU allow all the ex-pats from the UK to stay, or will they take this as an opportunity to send them home and have the businesses, jobs and housing made available to all those refugees they have from Africa.

 

 

Interesting dilemma indeed. Much more cut and dried if you're single but for those with partners and kids , now what?

 

My sister's in this situation but the difficulty is recognised by the EU member for which we hold passports. This EU member used to make citizens renounce citizenship when taking citizenship of another country but has relaxed the policy for citizens taking UK nationality. 

 

My summation is EU members are more likely to be accommodating for movement of people but the poms can expect to get hammered on provisions for trade.

 

The reverse question is more interesting. What is the UK going to do with all those johnny foreigners 'coming over here doing the jobs we're not willing or qualified to do'?

 

 


SJB

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  # 2283554 25-Jul-2019 15:55
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elpenguino:

 

sir1963:

 

elpenguino:

 

Varkk:

 

sir1963:

 

And I think the part they have completely missed is that if the UK wishes to sell into the EU, they will STILL have to conform to the EU regulations, leaving the EU did not change this.

 

 

One important thing it does change however is that they will no longer have any say in the shaping of EU regulations.

 

 

 

 

 

And vice versa. The EU will have to abide by UK regulations when importing to the UK and have no say over UK regulations.

 

And for the UK no more ECJ or Common Fisheries policy.




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  # 2283562 25-Jul-2019 16:03
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If you know the origin of this photo, you're old! All work and no play...


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  # 2283849 26-Jul-2019 09:03
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and ...

 

 

and ...





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  # 2284022 26-Jul-2019 10:55
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https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/07/24/boris-johnsons-russian-oligarch-problem/

Boris Johnson’s Russian Oligarch Problem

Britain’s new prime minister has a shaky record in dealing with the Kremlin and its cronies. Here’s how he can fix it.

By Mark Galeotti

The officer from the National Crime Agency (NCA), Britain’s equivalent of the FBI, was both disappointed and angry when I spoke with him recently amid his country’s political turmoil. “I’m already hearing suggestions that dealing with dirty Russian money isn’t as much of a priority, and it’s likely to be even less,” he said as he drained his second pint. “For a while, I thought we could kick the Russian oligarchs out. Now we might be laying down the red carpet again.”

The United Kingdom has taken a strong line with Russia, especially after the attempted assassination of the Russian military intelligence officer-turned-MI6 asset Sergei Skripal in 2018. It expelled 23 diplomats from the Russian Embassy. It brought in tougher controls on Russians flying in on private jets and more extensive searches of their goods. More quietly, the NCA and intelligence services stepped up their investigations of Russian money coming into the country. Then-Prime Minister Theresa May was blunt in her message to those Russians who wanted to enjoy London’s freedoms and lifestyle while working against Britain for the Kremlin: “There is no place for these people—or their money—in our country.”

Amid the elevation of Boris Johnson to the premiership this week and the seemingly inexorable countdown to a potential hard Brexit—a withdrawal from the European Union without a negotiated deal—Britain’s efforts to get tough with Russian political-business figures may be about to take a big step backward.

It is not so much that there is a belief Johnson will be soft on Russian President Vladimir Putin, despite recent revelations in the British press about his closeness with the emigre Russian businessman Alexander Temerko. (In fairness, Temerko is a complex figure, who has criticized Moscow’s aggression in Ukraine.)

Rather, it is the expectation that a hard Brexit will have a negative impact on the British economy. The Bank of England’s worst-case scenario—which some have criticized as too extreme—even suggested an 8 percent fall in GDP. Many fear that the government will be so desperate for liquidity and inward investment that a “swashbuckling” post-Brexit Britain will be even more open to dirty money and kleptocrats, just as it was after the 2008 financial crisis.

It is hard to know quite what the protean Johnson really thinks about Putin (or, indeed, anyone else). Although the new prime minister has publicly mocked and criticized the Russian president, there are pervasive reports—never quite conclusively denied by the Foreign Office—that during Johnson’s time as foreign secretary, direct oversight of MI6, the foreign intelligence service, was quietly moved out of his portfolio because of his Russian connections.

He is certainly no admirer or crony of Putin’s. Rather, the concern is whether Johnson, having already made campaign pledges that would cost tens of billions pounds and promising to be “the most pro-business prime minister” ever, would be as enthusiastic about choking off the flow of Russian money into London. As mayor of London, after all, he presided over a property boom driven by often-questionable inward investment, and his answer to the problem of dirty money was not to drive it out but simply to tax it.

No wonder the law enforcers are worried. The NCA officer I spoke to, for example, didn’t expect anything as crude as a direct order to leave the Russians be. Rather, he feared there would be a quiet expectation that they were no longer a priority and that “the resources for what are often terrifyingly complex cases would simply dry up.” Given that “the other guys can hire the best lawyers and accountants,” this would be tantamount to giving them a free hand.

One former British intelligence officer who keeps in touch with his erstwhile colleagues was in an apocalyptic mood at the thought of what a Johnson government might portend. “Having Russian oligarchs here, all with their inside lines to the Kremlin, ought to be considered a national security risk, not an economic opportunity,” he said.
...
It is possible to do business with Russians and still remain secure. And it is possible to demonstrate that the West is not anti-Russian, but anti-Kremlin and anti-kleptocrat. What’s needed is just a bit of nuance—though nuance, of course, has never been Boris Johnson’s strongest quality.

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  # 2284387 26-Jul-2019 19:32
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The Guardian - Boris Johnson can’t be found out: we all know he’s bluffing

 

The new PM’s rise to No 10 is the carefully managed product of three decades of a show, stage-managed by and about himself.

 



 


As Boris Johnson walked up to the podium at 10 Downing Street to make his first address as prime minister, they should have played Leonard Cohen’s Everybody Knows as his fanfare: “Everybody knows that the boat is leaking / Everybody knows that the captain lied.”

 

For the one thing that can be said in Johnson’s defence is that he is not a conman. Yes, of course, he speaks fluent falsehood as his native language. But he deceives no one. Everybody knows.

 

The Tory MPs who backed him, the party members who voted for him so overwhelmingly, the media cheerleaders who hail his accession - they all know exactly what he’s like. They don’t believe him - they just wilfully suspend their disbelief.

 

They cannot say they were taken in by a plausible charlatan - they choose to applaud the obviously implausible, to crown the man they know to be the Great Pretender. ...

 





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  # 2285517 30-Jul-2019 08:55
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The Washington Post - Could Boris Johnson’s ‘no-deal’ Brexit break up the United Kingdom?

 

July 29 at 4:36 PM

 


LONDON — Boris Johnson was jeered during his first trip as prime minister to Scotland on Monday.

 

He didn’t get the warmest reception from the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, either.

 

“The people of Scotland did not vote for this Tory Government, they didn't vote for this new prime minister, they didn't vote for Brexit and they certainly didn’t vote for a catastrophic no-deal Brexit, which Boris Johnson is now planning for,” she said ahead of their meeting.

 

Johnson left Sturgeon’s official’s residence out the back door, avoiding another confrontation with protesters. ...

 

On Johnson’s first full day as Britain’s head of government last week, Ian Blackford, the Scottish National Party’s loquacious leader in Parliament, stood in the House of Commons and welcomed “the last prime minister of the United Kingdom.”

 

Scottish voters rejected independence, 55 percent to 45 percent, in a referendum in 2014. Now, Scottish nationalists are hoping that Johnson’s premiership will help their cause. ...

 



 

Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg (the moggy) brexit cartoon.

 

Boris in the famous cinematic Brando gangster pose, holding Tory backbencher and leading brexiter Jacob Rees-Mogg as the sinister cat.





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