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Rikkitic

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#261423 27-Nov-2019 09:09
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The new coalition thread seems a little dated now so I thought I would make a fresh start. I offer this thread as the basis for a discussion of the policies and promises (and failures!) of the different political groupings vying for votes in the next election. Everyone probably knows I lean progressive, but all viewpoints are invited. 

 

One thing that strikes me so far about Simon Bridges is his repeated promises to undo things the current government has done. The latest has to do with prisoner voting. He says he will reverse that as soon as he is elected (if he is elected). 

 

This seems very reactionary and self-defeating to me. A new government is supposed to come with new ideas. It should be looking at ways to move ahead. If the only things he can think of are rejections of what the other side has done, then he is looking backward, not ahead. Undo this, undo that, and then what? If every government simply undoes what every other government has done, that is a road to nowhere. It leads to nothing I would want to vote for. It strongly suggests that Bridges has no vision or real ideas. He is merely a mean-spirited grinch who wants to steal everyone's Christmas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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floydbloke
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  #2361389 27-Nov-2019 10:22
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RE the prisoner voting thing.  Seems to me Bridges is exploiting the fairly widespread public view that we need to get tougher on criminals, not softer which this coalition appears to be doing. Low-hanging fruit for him if you like.





= > ÷

 

 


Rikkitic

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  #2361426 27-Nov-2019 11:18
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No doubt, but simply saying my policy is to undo whatever your policy is, is no policy at all.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 


Mahon
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  #2361473 27-Nov-2019 12:25
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Rikkitic:

 

No doubt, but simply saying my policy is to undo whatever your policy is, is no policy at all.

 

 

 

 

Of course its a policy. Not sure how you can say it isnt? Much of labours last election campaign were policies on undoing Nationals policies eg tax cuts(which were actually legislated).

 

Perhaps the last election we have seen the largest numbers of broken promises ever, and I suggest waiting for over 2 years to implement some is well past being called an election promise. Even after over 100 reviews most of the recommendations are not being implemented, unless of course they happen in election year.

 

I suspect we will get billions of spending promises next budget with most not being implemented until after the election.

 

If you want promises, the health system is worse than EVER with no sign of more funding despite promises.

 

Poverty is still higher than ever, with record numbers living in motels, despite promises this was going to be reversed. Benefits continue to be eroded by inflation with reviews being ignored.

 

I am not pointing the finger at causes here as both parties are responsible. Just that we were promised a fix.

 

I dont see the last forum topic being done and dusted yet.


Fred99
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  #2361481 27-Nov-2019 12:42
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Where's ACT when you need them?

 

I'd have thought that Bridges' proposed ban on wearing gang patches in public was so authoritarian and in direct opposition to fundamental libertarian values concerning individual freedom / freedom of expression, that ACT should be sufficiently outraged to state that if that went ahead then a coalition wouldn't happen.

 

As far as "Strike Force Raptor" goes, what an infantile idiotic idea.  Won't work anyway, targeting the gangs that way in a continuation / acceleration of the failed draconian "war on drugs" will just increase retail prices, increase profits, and the gangs will adapt their behaviour to circumvent being targeted.  If he's looking Aus police as an example of how it's done, maybe he should look at data on how well it isn't working there, the more draconian the laws, the worse the problem seems to get,  for over 50 years now...

 

As far as forcing prisoners to work goes, as occurs in the US, it is a form of slavery.  That it includes disenfranchisement is a moral hazard. That it affects mainly black prisoners could be by design - a concession in the 13th amendment to placate slave owners / Southern sates by allowing slavery to remain legal.

 

As far as training goes, it sounds wonderful to reward prisoners if they pass NCEA, but as presented, it's designed to punish those who can't by disallowing parole/early release if they fail. Given the appalling literacy rate of the average prisoner, forcing them to pass NCEA is wild fantasy and will merely punish the stupid for being stupid.

 

 


Rikkitic

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  #2361484 27-Nov-2019 12:45
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Mahon:

 

I dont see the last forum topic being done and dusted yet.

 

 

No, there is still plenty of scope for the other forum topic, though 'new' coalition government might need updating. But I think there is also scope for a new topic that focuses on the next election.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


MikeB4
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  #2361496 27-Nov-2019 13:21
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The cycle of National et al, Labour et al is in my view a tried and fail process. Repeating the same old does not really get anywhere. I was hoping, probably naively, that we might have seen a new centre/centre left party emerge with policies and people that would challenge this perpetual cycle and bring new life and new direction for our government and nation. It does however seem that we are doomed to endure the same rubbish we have endured for decades.


Mahon
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  #2361498 27-Nov-2019 13:25
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Fred99:

 

Where's ACT when you need them?

 

I'd have thought that Bridges' proposed ban on wearing gang patches in public was so authoritarian and in direct opposition to fundamental libertarian values concerning individual freedom / freedom of expression, that ACT should be sufficiently outraged to state that if that went ahead then a coalition wouldn't happen.

 

As far as "Strike Force Raptor" goes, what an infantile idiotic idea.  Won't work anyway, targeting the gangs that way in a continuation / acceleration of the failed draconian "war on drugs" will just increase retail prices, increase profits, and the gangs will adapt their behaviour to circumvent being targeted.  If he's looking Aus police as an example of how it's done, maybe he should look at data on how well it isn't working there, the more draconian the laws, the worse the problem seems to get,  for over 50 years now...

 

As far as forcing prisoners to work goes, as occurs in the US, it is a form of slavery.  That it includes disenfranchisement is a moral hazard. That it affects mainly black prisoners could be by design - a concession in the 13th amendment to placate slave owners / Southern sates by allowing slavery to remain legal.

 

As far as training goes, it sounds wonderful to reward prisoners if they pass NCEA, but as presented, it's designed to punish those who can't by disallowing parole/early release if they fail. Given the appalling literacy rate of the average prisoner, forcing them to pass NCEA is wild fantasy and will merely punish the stupid for being stupid.

 

 

 

 

It is a discussion paper only.


 
 
 
 


Fred99
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  #2361752 27-Nov-2019 17:32
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Mahon:

 

It is a discussion paper only.

 

 

It's Bridges having an attempt - going full Trump mode:

 

 

He's a very nasty piece of work. 


MikeB4
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  #2361764 27-Nov-2019 18:33
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@Fred99  As long as Simon Bridges is there along with Bennett and Collins National will not get my vote. 


sir1963
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  #2361767 27-Nov-2019 18:39
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floydbloke:

 

RE the prisoner voting thing.  Seems to me Bridges is exploiting the fairly widespread public view that we need to get tougher on criminals, not softer which this coalition appears to be doing. Low-hanging fruit for him if you like.

 

 

Brutality does not work, never has, never will.

 

If harsher sentences and a more punitive approach actually worked the US would have a lower crime rate than we do and it does not, not by a long shot.

 

Some European countries are "softer" than we are and have a lower crime rates and a much lower recidivism rate.

 

 

 

Perhaps we need some means of getting better value from our MPs as Bridges is certainly not value for money.


tdgeek
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  #2361951 28-Nov-2019 08:06
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sir1963:

 

floydbloke:

 

RE the prisoner voting thing.  Seems to me Bridges is exploiting the fairly widespread public view that we need to get tougher on criminals, not softer which this coalition appears to be doing. Low-hanging fruit for him if you like.

 

 

Brutality does not work, never has, never will.

 

If harsher sentences and a more punitive approach actually worked the US would have a lower crime rate than we do and it does not, not by a long shot.

 

Some European countries are "softer" than we are and have a lower crime rates and a much lower recidivism rate.

 

 

 

Perhaps we need some means of getting better value from our MPs as Bridges is certainly not value for money.

 

 

The Nordic countries have lead the way on that. What is deemed here as a too soft approach.


tdgeek
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  #2361955 28-Nov-2019 08:13
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I'm keen to see what National has in place for the sectors that need help. Their Our Bottom Line handout is very very wide reaching. They will need policies for a change, and to take ownership. I dont want "we will fix this country" "Great, how will you do that?" "We will do that by fixing this country"

 

The present Govt has been rightfully bagged for promising a lot and delivering little, I'd like to see what Nats will do. By virtue of Labours fails, National are obligated to have a clear and detailed plan and to execute it. I'd vote for that. If they dont promise to shut down Kiwibuild I won't be voting for them


GV27
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  #2361968 28-Nov-2019 08:47
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tdgeek:

 

The present Govt has been rightfully bagged for promising a lot and delivering little, I'd like to see what Nats will do. By virtue of Labours fails, National are obligated to have a clear and detailed plan and to execute it. I'd vote for that. If they dont promise to shut down Kiwibuild I won't be voting for them

 

 

I don't see why the bar for the current opposition should be any higher for this one than it was for Labour, which was apparently super super low.

 

A lot of the backflips on policy from Labour have a direct impact on us and our quality of life, probably as much as the ones they have actually executed have improved others for the better. But I'd prefer to be voting on an actual representative basis and not a 'least-worst' hold your nose type thing. 


tdgeek
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  #2361970 28-Nov-2019 08:58
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GV27:

 

tdgeek:

 

The present Govt has been rightfully bagged for promising a lot and delivering little, I'd like to see what Nats will do. By virtue of Labours fails, National are obligated to have a clear and detailed plan and to execute it. I'd vote for that. If they dont promise to shut down Kiwibuild I won't be voting for them

 

 

I don't see why the bar for the current opposition should be any higher for this one than it was for Labour, which was apparently super super low.

 

A lot of the backflips on policy from Labour have a direct impact on us and our quality of life, probably as much as the ones they have actually executed have improved others for the better. But I'd prefer to be voting on an actual representative basis and not a 'least-worst' hold your nose type thing. 

 

 

No idea how you took my post as different bars.

 

Labours bar was a range of moves to improve matters. Nationals bar should be the same. Labour failed. I expect a new Govt not to fail, which was the expectation when the current Govt came into power. The bar is the same


MurrayM
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  #2362108 28-Nov-2019 09:48
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Every time I hear Simon Bridges say "If we get in then we'll do this and we'll do that" I think to myself "But you guys had several years to do those things and you didn't, why should I think you'll do them now?"


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