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  # 2362115 28-Nov-2019 09:56
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MurrayM:

 

Every time I hear Simon Bridges say "If we get in then we'll do this and we'll do that" I think to myself "But you guys had several years to do those things and you didn't, why should I think you'll do them now?"

 

 

Thats my conundrum between them and lacklustre Labour. Which is why I'd like detail, and not another Labour no detail wishlist

 

The other valid point is forget about climate change policy

 

The plus factors is that Labours fails are well known, Nats would not want to make promises that they cannot keep, as it will go full circle again.




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  # 2362125 28-Nov-2019 10:05
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A lot of Labour's failures are self-inflicted, no question about that. But they have also been kneecapped by NZ First. What difference, if any, might a Labour/Greens government make? Would they have learned anything from their mistakes? 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 


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  # 2362130 28-Nov-2019 10:13
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Rikkitic:

 

A lot of Labour's failures are self-inflicted, no question about that. But they have also been kneecapped by NZ First. What difference, if any, might a Labour/Greens government make? Would they have learned anything from their mistakes? 

 

 

They were never going to get in without NZ First. If you're going to give parties an out on following through with policies because they have coalition partners then MMP effectively renders any campaign policies null and useless. 


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  # 2362132 28-Nov-2019 10:16
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Rikkitic:

 

A lot of Labour's failures are self-inflicted, no question about that. But they have also been kneecapped by NZ First. What difference, if any, might a Labour/Greens government make? Would they have learned anything from their mistakes? 

 

 

 

 

Fully agree. He was a risk, and they knew that, but he has gone too far. Note that he has never completed a term when he has been in Government!

 

The difficulty for Labour is they need to convince everyone that they have learned their lessons and that they wont go with NZF again. Bold but it has to be that way. They are in with a shot if they come clean, fess up, and put their better experienced name forward again.


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  # 2362147 28-Nov-2019 10:17
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GV27:

 

Rikkitic:

 

A lot of Labour's failures are self-inflicted, no question about that. But they have also been kneecapped by NZ First. What difference, if any, might a Labour/Greens government make? Would they have learned anything from their mistakes? 

 

 

They were never going to get in without NZ First. If you're going to give parties an out on following through with policies because they have coalition partners then MMP effectively renders any campaign policies null and useless. 

 

 

Thats true, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. Polls have shown they can bypass NZF. Kick them to touch


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  # 2362286 28-Nov-2019 12:44
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GV27:

 

Rikkitic:

 

A lot of Labour's failures are self-inflicted, no question about that. But they have also been kneecapped by NZ First. What difference, if any, might a Labour/Greens government make? Would they have learned anything from their mistakes? 

 

 

They were never going to get in without NZ First. If you're going to give parties an out on following through with policies because they have coalition partners then MMP effectively renders any campaign policies null and useless. 

 

 

Under MMP politics is always going to be a matter of compromise. I feel voters also need to practice compromise. Government that stick to policy stubbornly are worse in my book than governments that in view of changes alter or drop policies.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 2362317 28-Nov-2019 13:26
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MikeB4:

 

Under MMP politics is always going to be a matter of compromise. I feel voters also need to practice compromise. Government that stick to policy stubbornly are worse in my book than governments that in view of changes alter or drop policies.

 

 

So what's to stop parties promising whatever they want to get elected and then hiding behind the shield of political reality once they have to form a coalition and don't deliver any of their flagship policies at all?

 

Thankfully that would never happen...


 
 
 
 


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  # 2362322 28-Nov-2019 13:33
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GV27:

 

MikeB4:

 

Under MMP politics is always going to be a matter of compromise. I feel voters also need to practice compromise. Government that stick to policy stubbornly are worse in my book than governments that in view of changes alter or drop policies.

 

 

So what's to stop parties promising whatever they want to get elected and then hiding behind the shield of political reality once they have to form a coalition and don't deliver any of their flagship policies at all?

 

Thankfully that would never happen...

 

 

Quite simple, survival.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 2362323 28-Nov-2019 13:34
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GV27:

 

MikeB4:

 

Under MMP politics is always going to be a matter of compromise. I feel voters also need to practice compromise. Government that stick to policy stubbornly are worse in my book than governments that in view of changes alter or drop policies.

 

 

So what's to stop parties promising whatever they want to get elected and then hiding behind the shield of political reality once they have to form a coalition and don't deliver any of their flagship policies at all?

 

Thankfully that would never happen...

 

 

Absolutely nothing, and it has probably already happened.

 

For a start you can promise nebulous things like "Make America Great again", sounds good, people want it, but everyones expectation of what it means is different, there are no agreed measurements or commitments so how can anyone claim it was a failure. Heck, you can even tell different groups the same thing making them think they are going to get what the want without promising them anything much if anything.

 

THAT is the art of politics. Sound good, be vague , and ignore your failures.

 

 


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  # 2362324 28-Nov-2019 13:40
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GV27:

 

MikeB4:

 

Under MMP politics is always going to be a matter of compromise. I feel voters also need to practice compromise. Government that stick to policy stubbornly are worse in my book than governments that in view of changes alter or drop policies.

 

 

So what's to stop parties promising whatever they want to get elected and then hiding behind the shield of political reality once they have to form a coalition and don't deliver any of their flagship policies at all?

 

Thankfully that would never happen...

 

 

How many flagship policies are there? It seems that every policy is a flagship policy. Or every policy that is not fully and 1000% complete is a failed flagship policy?

 

In answer to your question, the following election, the title of this thread

 

Hence why I am keen to see the Oppositions policies, goals, details and how they will achieve them. Things that haven't been stated for over a decade. Then, instead of rhetoric and there is no housing crisis, they can make a better job of governing, including the alleged housing crisis.

 

If we dont wish to repeat the NZF involvement, all parties need to campaign against them as well as for themselves.


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  # 2362325 28-Nov-2019 13:41
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sir1963:

 

GV27:

 

MikeB4:

 

Under MMP politics is always going to be a matter of compromise. I feel voters also need to practice compromise. Government that stick to policy stubbornly are worse in my book than governments that in view of changes alter or drop policies.

 

 

So what's to stop parties promising whatever they want to get elected and then hiding behind the shield of political reality once they have to form a coalition and don't deliver any of their flagship policies at all?

 

Thankfully that would never happen...

 

 

Absolutely nothing, and it has probably already happened.

 

For a start you can promise nebulous things like "Make America Great again", sounds good, people want it, but everyones expectation of what it means is different, there are no agreed measurements or commitments so how can anyone claim it was a failure. Heck, you can even tell different groups the same thing making them think they are going to get what the want without promising them anything much if anything.

 

THAT is the art of politics. Sound good, be vague , and ignore your failures.

 

 

 

 

And that was what was voted out last time. Classically put


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  # 2362328 28-Nov-2019 14:00
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tdgeek:

 

sir1963:

 

GV27:

 

MikeB4:

 

Under MMP politics is always going to be a matter of compromise. I feel voters also need to practice compromise. Government that stick to policy stubbornly are worse in my book than governments that in view of changes alter or drop policies.

 

 

So what's to stop parties promising whatever they want to get elected and then hiding behind the shield of political reality once they have to form a coalition and don't deliver any of their flagship policies at all?

 

Thankfully that would never happen...

 

 

Absolutely nothing, and it has probably already happened.

 

For a start you can promise nebulous things like "Make America Great again", sounds good, people want it, but everyones expectation of what it means is different, there are no agreed measurements or commitments so how can anyone claim it was a failure. Heck, you can even tell different groups the same thing making them think they are going to get what the want without promising them anything much if anything.

 

THAT is the art of politics. Sound good, be vague , and ignore your failures.

 

 

 

 

And that was what was voted out last time. Classically put

 

 

Well Simon is going to promise the moon, just so he can be prime minister.

 

Simon is desperate to be PM, and he will be hauling out all the tired old ideas to try and scare the elderly (soft on crime), the right (dole blunders), Farmers (carbon tax), etc etc etc

 

He is going to forget a decade of under funding schools, nurses, in fact he will be blaming Labour for not going far enough with funding, though promising nothing useful himself .

 

and NZ has some MAJOR issues looming.

 

Where I live, 30% of GPs will retire within 5 years, 50% within 10 years unless they can be encouraged into working well into their retirement.

 

Universities are cutting staff and courses because of underfunding

 

Polytechs, bordering on collapse so a major reshuffle to try and stop it without actually spending more, it will fail.

 

Large numbers of tradies are coming up for retirement, think its hard to get a plumber / spark / builder now.... just wait.

 

Wages much higher in Australia, I know lots of Kiwis living there making a bucket load more than they did here.

 

climate change, its happening, its NOT going to be good for us.

 

We should be double tracking and electrifying as much of the rail system as we can, BEFORE everyone else in the world with much deeper pockets puts the price of the materials we need to do this beyond our reach.

 

 

 

etc


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  # 2362331 28-Nov-2019 14:07
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sir1963:

 

 

 

Well Simon is going to promise the moon, just so he can be prime minister.

 

Simon is desperate to be PM, and he will be hauling out all the tired old ideas to try and scare the elderly (soft on crime), the right (dole blunders), Farmers (carbon tax), etc etc etc

 

He is going to forget a decade of under funding schools, nurses, in fact he will be blaming Labour for not going far enough with funding, though promising nothing useful himself .

 

and NZ has some MAJOR issues looming.

 

Where I live, 30% of GPs will retire within 5 years, 50% within 10 years unless they can be encouraged into working well into their retirement.

 

Universities are cutting staff and courses because of underfunding

 

Polytechs, bordering on collapse so a major reshuffle to try and stop it without actually spending more, it will fail.

 

Large numbers of tradies are coming up for retirement, think its hard to get a plumber / spark / builder now.... just wait.

 

Wages much higher in Australia, I know lots of Kiwis living there making a bucket load more than they did here.

 

climate change, its happening, its NOT going to be good for us.

 

We should be double tracking and electrifying as much of the rail system as we can, BEFORE everyone else in the world with much deeper pockets puts the price of the materials we need to do this beyond our reach.

 

 

 

etc

 

 

I hear you. While NZ and what's wrong with it is all Labours fault now, the fact remains that prior to the Coalition it was a do nothing period. The GFC and EQ myths have already been busted, and that was here. We are going nowhere and still aren't. Its ironic that the Kiwi number 8 wire mentality doesn't exist in public life.


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  # 2362333 28-Nov-2019 14:16
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tdgeek:

 

sir1963:

 

 

 

Well Simon is going to promise the moon, just so he can be prime minister.

 

Simon is desperate to be PM, and he will be hauling out all the tired old ideas to try and scare the elderly (soft on crime), the right (dole blunders), Farmers (carbon tax), etc etc etc

 

He is going to forget a decade of under funding schools, nurses, in fact he will be blaming Labour for not going far enough with funding, though promising nothing useful himself .

 

and NZ has some MAJOR issues looming.

 

Where I live, 30% of GPs will retire within 5 years, 50% within 10 years unless they can be encouraged into working well into their retirement.

 

Universities are cutting staff and courses because of underfunding

 

Polytechs, bordering on collapse so a major reshuffle to try and stop it without actually spending more, it will fail.

 

Large numbers of tradies are coming up for retirement, think its hard to get a plumber / spark / builder now.... just wait.

 

Wages much higher in Australia, I know lots of Kiwis living there making a bucket load more than they did here.

 

climate change, its happening, its NOT going to be good for us.

 

We should be double tracking and electrifying as much of the rail system as we can, BEFORE everyone else in the world with much deeper pockets puts the price of the materials we need to do this beyond our reach.

 

 

 

etc

 

 

I hear you. While NZ and what's wrong with it is all Labours fault now, the fact remains that prior to the Coalition it was a do nothing period. The GFC and EQ myths have already been busted, and that was here. We are going nowhere and still aren't. Its ironic that the Kiwi number 8 wire mentality doesn't exist in public life.

 

 

 

 

I don't accept is labours fault.

 

I accept they over promised on housing, they had no idea how long it takes to change things.

 

We need more teachers to train apprentices that takes time, and apprentices don't become tradesmen for 3-4 years, so trying to double the number of houses being build overnight was never going to work.

 

But National is not offering anything either, they had almost a decade and actually achieved very little apart from making the books look good by delaying maintenance on government owned property, of keeping wages of government employees (Teaches/nurses) down leaving them to be someone elses problem later on. And I don't believe a future Nat government will be any different.


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  # 2362334 28-Nov-2019 14:23
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sir1963:

 

But National is not offering anything either, they had almost a decade and actually achieved very little apart from making the books look good by delaying maintenance on government owned property, of keeping wages of government employees (Teaches/nurses) down leaving them to be someone elses problem later on. And I don't believe a future Nat government will be any different.

 

 

And this is the rub: This level of scrutiny is fine to apply to National for what they didn't do in Government, but Labour in opposition couldn't come up with a realistic plan in the same time-frame.

 

Where you sit on the political spectrum will decide whether one is somehow more OK than the other. I get the feeling National's gang plan (Strike Force Raptor Cobra Able Archer Team Alpha) has had more media scrutiny than was applied to any of Labour's policies during the whole 2017 campaign. 


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