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  # 2362797 29-Nov-2019 12:21
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MikeB4:

 

@tdgeek That is FPP I am not sure what that would be and so open to abuse.

 

NZ Green went?

 

NZF went?

 

Act went?

 

Social Credit and Values went pre MMP. We currently do not have a minority government, the coalition is a representation of the majority of voters. The multiple party system is representative and not representative based on compromise. A two party system is not representative and the only time NZ has endured minority governments from memory was during the pre MMP period, correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Name the minor parties. Greens and NZF are still current. The rest have all gone, last was Maori. Before that was TOP, Internet Party and so on. What is the value of ACT? Nothing. What is the value of NZF, clearly nothing unless you like throwing money away. Bruce would have added value but never quite got there. Where is Values???

 

We do have a Minority Govt, was Labour Greens voted in? No. Winston got them in. Im sure Muldoon and his minority Government had a higher popular vote than Labour and The Greens last election

 

It seems you are concerned the either Labour or National govern alone? In a two party system where the popular vote decides the Govt that's what required. Majority wins or is that nor democratic. The current Coalition was not democratically voted in. You would need to ask the NZF voters what they wanted , but no, dirty deals decided


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  # 2362798 29-Nov-2019 12:26
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Rikkitic:

 

European countries like Germany and Holland always have government coalitions based on multiple parties. No system is perfect, of course, but government by compromise is a hell of a lot better than government by half the voters plus 1.

 

 

 

 

And if the Government by compromise was half the voters plus 1 and either National or Labour won by half the voters plus 1, which is best?


 
 
 
 


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  # 2362808 29-Nov-2019 12:33
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tdgeek:

 

MikeB4:

 

@tdgeek That is FPP I am not sure what that would be and so open to abuse.

 

NZ Green went?

 

NZF went?

 

Act went?

 

Social Credit and Values went pre MMP. We currently do not have a minority government, the coalition is a representation of the majority of voters. The multiple party system is representative and not representative based on compromise. A two party system is not representative and the only time NZ has endured minority governments from memory was during the pre MMP period, correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Name the minor parties. Greens and NZF are still current. The rest have all gone, last was Maori. Before that was TOP, Internet Party and so on. What is the value of ACT? Nothing. What is the value of NZF, clearly nothing unless you like throwing money away. Bruce would have added value but never quite got there. Where is Values???

 

We do have a Minority Govt, was Labour Greens voted in? No. Winston got them in. Im sure Muldoon and his minority Government had a higher popular vote than Labour and The Greens last election

 

It seems you are concerned the either Labour or National govern alone? In a two party system where the popular vote decides the Govt that's what required. Majority wins or is that nor democratic. The current Coalition was not democratically voted in. You would need to ask the NZF voters what they wanted , but no, dirty deals decided

 

 

The Maori Party still exists  http://www.maoriparty.org/

 

The Opportunities Party still exists  https://www.top.org.nz/

 

You are still thinking two party in a multiple party system. Muldoon governed with well less than 50% of the total vote and in one election from memory as low as 35%.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 2362816 29-Nov-2019 12:48
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MikeB4:

 

 

 

You are still thinking two party in a multiple party system.

 

 

Where does mandate fit for you? Does the current coalition have a mandate?

 

As I have already stated, my ideal two party system would require governing by popular vote. Electoral boundaries supply the MP's, popular vote will add MP's pr reduce MP's so that the party with the most votes and thereby majority will govern

 

You say a compromised government is representative, it cannot be when it doesn't have a mandate. Or it seems that a mandate isnt important, 3 of us will have lattes and do a few deals.


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  # 2362818 29-Nov-2019 12:52
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<thread being hijacked by argument about FPP vs PR>

 

Probably best to start a separate thread, or stay on topic.




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  # 2362819 29-Nov-2019 12:54
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There seems to be an implied assumption that any party supported by less than a third of the electorate is made up of wild-eyed radicals who want to burn everything down. In my (Dutch) experience, smaller parties often add a moderating element to political negotiations. Of course, they can also go the other direction, as recent experience demonstrates. But at least you have a mix of beliefs and ideologies, instead of just a binary choice. I don't actually like systems based on parties at all, but if it has to be like that, then my strong preference is for multiple parties.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2362820 29-Nov-2019 12:57
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tdgeek:

 

MikeB4:

 

 

 

You are still thinking two party in a multiple party system.

 

 

Where does mandate fit for you? Does the current coalition have a mandate?

 

As I have already stated, my ideal two party system would require governing by popular vote. Electoral boundaries supply the MP's, popular vote will add MP's pr reduce MP's so that the party with the most votes and thereby majority will govern

 

You say a compromised government is representative, it cannot be when it doesn't have a mandate. Or it seems that a mandate isnt important, 3 of us will have lattes and do a few deals.

 

 

Of course an MMP government has a mandate. If anything it has a greater mandate because it represents the ideals and aspirations of a greater number of people.

 

I remember they year when Labour got well over 60% of the vote, but National got the majority of the seats, so national ruled.

 

I fully expect every government is going to make decisions I disagree with, no matter who is in government. My democratic right is to write to the MP/PM, attend meetings and voice my concerns, make submissions to select committees , and in the end vote again, potentially for someone different . All very democratic.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 2362823 29-Nov-2019 13:02
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Fred99:

 

<thread being hijacked by argument about FPP vs PR>

 

Probably best to start a separate thread, or stay on topic.

 

 

I think it is relevant as it will have a big influence on the outcome of the next election and the policies of the parties contesting the election.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 2362883 29-Nov-2019 13:25
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MikeB4:

 

Fred99:

 

<thread being hijacked by argument about FPP vs PR>

 

Probably best to start a separate thread, or stay on topic.

 

 

I think it is relevant as it will have a big influence on the outcome of the next election and the policies of the parties contesting the election.

 

 

But the next election will be held under MMP, arguments about returning to FPP are irrelevant.


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  # 2362887 29-Nov-2019 13:38
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Rikkitic:

 

There seems to be an implied assumption that any party supported by less than a third of the electorate is made up of wild-eyed radicals who want to burn everything down. In my (Dutch) experience, smaller parties often add a moderating element to political negotiations. Of course, they can also go the other direction, as recent experience demonstrates. But at least you have a mix of beliefs and ideologies, instead of just a binary choice. I don't actually like systems based on parties at all, but if it has to be like that, then my strong preference is for multiple parties.

 

 

 

 

I havent seen that here. I have seen some here who wont vote if NZF is there. The case in NZ is that right now, the minor parties offer nothing, or less than nothing. I have read heavily here how NZF is bad, but now its a compromise Govt so those who banish Peters and NZF, you should not do that a  that and him are valid members of the Government process, apparently. +1 for NZF and ACT, we need these. As it gives us representation. Apparently


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  # 2362889 29-Nov-2019 13:41
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sir1963:

 

tdgeek:

 

MikeB4:

 

 

 

You are still thinking two party in a multiple party system.

 

 

Where does mandate fit for you? Does the current coalition have a mandate?

 

As I have already stated, my ideal two party system would require governing by popular vote. Electoral boundaries supply the MP's, popular vote will add MP's pr reduce MP's so that the party with the most votes and thereby majority will govern

 

You say a compromised government is representative, it cannot be when it doesn't have a mandate. Or it seems that a mandate isnt important, 3 of us will have lattes and do a few deals.

 

 

Of course an MMP government has a mandate. If anything it has a greater mandate because it represents the ideals and aspirations of a greater number of people.

 

I remember they year when Labour got well over 60% of the vote, but National got the majority of the seats, so national ruled.

 

I fully expect every government is going to make decisions I disagree with, no matter who is in government. My democratic right is to write to the MP/PM, attend meetings and voice my concerns, make submissions to select committees , and in the end vote again, potentially for someone different . All very democratic.

 

 

 

 

How does Labour/Greens/NZF have a mandate? Those who voted Labour or Greens or National placed their mandate in their chosen party. Are you suggesting a  majority of NZF voters wanted to go with Labour? That was no mandate.




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  # 2362890 29-Nov-2019 13:41
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It gives representation to those who voted for them. What is wrong with that?

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2362892 29-Nov-2019 13:42
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One change I would like to see before the 2020 election but very unlikely is that all parties be required to declare before the election who their preferred coalition partners are and what they require from partnership agreements. This will allow for more informed voting.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 2362894 29-Nov-2019 13:46
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

How does Labour/Greens/NZF have a mandate? Those who voted Labour or Greens or National placed their mandate in their chosen party. Are you suggesting a  majority of NZF voters wanted to go with Labour? That was no mandate.

 

 

You seem to think there is only two possible legitimate governments, a Labour Government or a National Government.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 




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  # 2362895 29-Nov-2019 13:48
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tdgeek:

 

How does Labour/Greens/NZF have a mandate? Those who voted Labour or Greens or National placed their mandate in their chosen party. Are you suggesting a  majority of NZF voters wanted to go with Labour? That was no mandate.

 

 

It most certainly is a mandate. Anyone who votes for NZF should have a knowledge of the party's history and its leadership. No-one, not even NZF voters, expected it to come out on top. What they voted for was representation of their views. They certainly got that. NZF is in the government and it has been very successful at blocking policies it doesn't like. I doubt it would have done any better in a National coalition. It probably would have done much worse, since National tends to ride roughshod over junior partners anyway.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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