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Rikkitic

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  #2362897 29-Nov-2019 13:49
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MikeB4:

 

You seem to think there is only two possible legitimate governments, a Labour Government or a National Government.

 

 

Spot on. Thank you.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


tdgeek
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  #2362899 29-Nov-2019 13:50
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Rikkitic:

 

It gives representation to those who voted for them. What is wrong with that?

 

 

 

 

LOL, you aren't serious?

 

Most, and likely a HEAVY portion of NZF voters wanted to go with National. Peters went with Labour. Are you suggesting that those disenfranchised NZF voters are represented? Well, as a volume of people, yes technically they are. But its wasnt what they wanted to represent.  As a list of VOTERS who voted based on the BELIEFS, no they didn't. So, fake news, no mandate. One person decided for them all

 

But a positive here is that Peters and NZF are valid members of our Government, and duly deserve that, and are fully representative of us all. But Mike, you said you wont vote for any party that supports NZF? They are valid and representatives, and are clearly one of many little parties we need to make MMP work as well as it does?


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
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  #2362903 29-Nov-2019 13:51
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MikeB4:

 

One change I would like to see before the 2020 election but very unlikely is that all parties be required to declare before the election who their preferred coalition partners are and what they require from partnership agreements. This will allow for more informed voting.

 

 

I agree 1000% Then the buyer gets the goods he/she paid for


Rikkitic

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  #2362905 29-Nov-2019 13:52
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America's crazy electoral system is a sort of FPP. Whoever gets the most electoral votes, wins, even if only by a margin of 1. Only two parties are ever in the contest in any meaningful sense, Democrat and Republican. How is that working out for them?

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


Rikkitic

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  #2362912 29-Nov-2019 13:57
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tdgeek:

 

Rikkitic:

 

It gives representation to those who voted for them. What is wrong with that?

 

 

 

 

LOL, you aren't serious?

 

Most, and likely a HEAVY portion of NZF voters wanted to go with National. Peters went with Labour. Are you suggesting that those disenfranchised NZF voters are represented? Well, as a volume of people, yes technically they are. But its wasnt what they wanted to represent.  As a list of VOTERS who voted based on the BELIEFS, no they didn't. So, fake news, no mandate. One person decided for them all

 

But a positive here is that Peters and NZF are valid members of our Government, and duly deserve that, and are fully representative of us all. But Mike, you said you wont vote for any party that supports NZF? They are valid and representatives, and are clearly one of many little parties we need to make MMP work as well as it does?

 

 

Come on, Tony. Those who vote for NZF know what they are getting. They know that what the party does is what Winston does. They went into it with eyes open. If they don't like the way to leadership abuses their vote, they stop giving it. That is democracy in action.

 

Apart from that, if there was a FPP election, and National won, they would most likely not be representing my beliefs. How is that democratic?

 

 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


tdgeek
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  #2362918 29-Nov-2019 14:02
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MikeB4:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

How does Labour/Greens/NZF have a mandate? Those who voted Labour or Greens or National placed their mandate in their chosen party. Are you suggesting a  majority of NZF voters wanted to go with Labour? That was no mandate.

 

 

You seem to think there is only two possible legitimate governments, a Labour Government or a National Government.

 

 

Historically that has been the case for almost all of our history in terms that only these two control Government. Had minor parties added value, we would not be having this discussion. But they rarely do. Commonly they make their play on power by dirty deals. Then what do we do? Bash them day and night, aka NZF

 

Give a party a mandate where their voters VOTED for the 50.1% or more, thats a mandate in the true sense. Then let them do their deeds without interruption. You voted them in you gave them 3 years to work

 

But please, no complaining about minor parties acting badly, wasting money, or being bigoted.


sir1963
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  #2362922 29-Nov-2019 14:06
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tdgeek:

 

sir1963:

 

tdgeek:

 

MikeB4:

 

 

 

You are still thinking two party in a multiple party system.

 

 

Where does mandate fit for you? Does the current coalition have a mandate?

 

As I have already stated, my ideal two party system would require governing by popular vote. Electoral boundaries supply the MP's, popular vote will add MP's pr reduce MP's so that the party with the most votes and thereby majority will govern

 

You say a compromised government is representative, it cannot be when it doesn't have a mandate. Or it seems that a mandate isnt important, 3 of us will have lattes and do a few deals.

 

 

Of course an MMP government has a mandate. If anything it has a greater mandate because it represents the ideals and aspirations of a greater number of people.

 

I remember they year when Labour got well over 60% of the vote, but National got the majority of the seats, so national ruled.

 

I fully expect every government is going to make decisions I disagree with, no matter who is in government. My democratic right is to write to the MP/PM, attend meetings and voice my concerns, make submissions to select committees , and in the end vote again, potentially for someone different . All very democratic.

 

 

 

 

How does Labour/Greens/NZF have a mandate? Those who voted Labour or Greens or National placed their mandate in their chosen party. Are you suggesting a  majority of NZF voters wanted to go with Labour? That was no mandate.

 

 

Ask yourself then if any MP has a mandate, especially those there from on the list.

 

There no MPs at all that can claim to have the support of the majority of voters.

 

Having party MPs strategically placed in "safe seats" is hardly a mandate either.

 

How far do you want to take this, do we vote on every MP and only those that get above 50% end up in parliament ?

 

 

 

So, yes, the majority of people voted to have the mix of various parties we have now based entirely on the % of vote their party received . MMP does not give any voter the right to place conditions on their vote, or on which policies the elected MPs will compromise on.

 

 

 

FPP had similar issues, even if the electorate was against a policy, as too was the sitting MP, they were told by the party which way they were to vote. No mandate needed or wanted.

 

 


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
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  #2362923 29-Nov-2019 14:07
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Rikkitic:

 

 

 

Come on, Tony. Those who vote for NZF know what they are getting. They know that what the party does is what Winston does. They went into it with eyes open. If they don't like the way to leadership abuses their vote, they stop giving it. That is democracy in action.

 

Apart from that, if there was a FPP election, and National won, they would most likely not be representing my beliefs. How is that democratic?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thats 100% democratic. We all voted, majority wins

 

 

 

Re the USS FPP system, you cant compare that with us. Maybe you could, they have gone through many periods of wealth and prosperity. Check history. My issue is the effect of small parties, you cant move Trump into that argument


sir1963
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  #2362925 29-Nov-2019 14:11
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tdgeek:

 

MikeB4:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

How does Labour/Greens/NZF have a mandate? Those who voted Labour or Greens or National placed their mandate in their chosen party. Are you suggesting a  majority of NZF voters wanted to go with Labour? That was no mandate.

 

 

You seem to think there is only two possible legitimate governments, a Labour Government or a National Government.

 

 

Historically that has been the case for almost all of our history in terms that only these two control Government. Had minor parties added value, we would not be having this discussion. But they rarely do. Commonly they make their play on power by dirty deals. Then what do we do? Bash them day and night, aka NZF

 

Give a party a mandate where their voters VOTED for the 50.1% or more, thats a mandate in the true sense. Then let them do their deeds without interruption. You voted them in you gave them 3 years to work

 

But please, no complaining about minor parties acting badly, wasting money, or being bigoted.

 

 

Or as we have had the majority of voters wanted labour but National won the most seats so National ruled.

 

No mandate at all.

 

And who got to decide on the MPs, why was only a small few able to decide who would be an MP, if you want a mandate then 50%+1 should be needed for each and every MP, otherwise that MP has no mandate from the voters.


tdgeek
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  #2362926 29-Nov-2019 14:15
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sir1963:

 

 

 

Ask yourself then if any MP has a mandate, especially those there from on the list.

 

There no MPs at all that can claim to have the support of the majority of voters.

 

Having party MPs strategically placed in "safe seats" is hardly a mandate either.

 

How far do you want to take this, do we vote on every MP and only those that get above 50% end up in parliament ?

 

 

 

So, yes, the majority of people voted to have the mix of various parties we have now based entirely on the % of vote their party received . MMP does not give any voter the right to place conditions on their vote, or on which policies the elected MPs will compromise on.

 

 

 

FPP had similar issues, even if the electorate was against a policy, as too was the sitting MP, they were told by the party which way they were to vote. No mandate needed or wanted.

 

 

 

 

MP's My issue is I prefer

 

1. A two party system

 

2. A majority (which is the mandate)

 

Now you are talking MP's? Why not the mandate of the voters of the party A or B? How far, well you are going off track. Two party system, get rid of nondescript minor parties. Let the "majority" party that was VOTED in, govern. Quite simple


tdgeek
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  #2362928 29-Nov-2019 14:19
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sir1963:

 

 

 

Or as we have had the majority of voters wanted labour but National won the most seats so National ruled.

 

No mandate at all.

 

And who got to decide on the MPs, why was only a small few able to decide who would be an MP, if you want a mandate then 50%+1 should be needed for each and every MP, otherwise that MP has no mandate from the voters.

 

 

Did you miss the 18 times I said, that in my two party system, where MP;s are elected in electorates, the ruling party is decided by popular vote? It seems to be clearly the most democratic, as the voters decide by casting votes. If you feel that parties like NZF and ACT are wonderful and we need such is in our government, then do what Mike suggests, disclose what deals you will do, as I ONLY want REAL VOTES to be used to decide an election


GV27
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  #2362947 29-Nov-2019 14:45
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tdgeek:

 

MP's My issue is I prefer

 

1. A two party system

 

2. A majority (which is the mandate)

 

Now you are talking MP's? Why not the mandate of the voters of the party A or B? How far, well you are going off track. Two party system, get rid of nondescript minor parties. Let the "majority" party that was VOTED in, govern. Quite simple

 

 

Ironically we pretty much have that as things stand. Winston and the Greens loathe National and won't deal with them, and Labour won't deal with ACT.

 

We've gone through a massive exercise in how we split and allocate a party vote because people who couldn't convince a geographic area to vote for them deserved representation but have ended up having all the power. If you did it on electorates alone you'd have a huge National majority - 41 (+1) v 29. The party vote blows it back the other way, but if you got rid of the party vote you'd either have more, different electorates or more MPs at the electorate level. 

 

But based on our current politicking, we're effectively a two party state. 


tdgeek
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  #2362953 29-Nov-2019 14:58
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GV27:

 

tdgeek:

 

MP's My issue is I prefer

 

1. A two party system

 

2. A majority (which is the mandate)

 

Now you are talking MP's? Why not the mandate of the voters of the party A or B? How far, well you are going off track. Two party system, get rid of nondescript minor parties. Let the "majority" party that was VOTED in, govern. Quite simple

 

 

Ironically we pretty much have that as things stand. Winston and the Greens loathe National and won't deal with them, and Labour won't deal with ACT.

 

We've gone through a massive exercise in how we split and allocate a party vote because people who couldn't convince a geographic area to vote for them deserved representation but have ended up having all the power. If you did it on electorates alone you'd have a huge National majority - 41 (+1) v 29. The party vote blows it back the other way, but if you got rid of the party vote you'd either have more, different electorates or more MPs at the electorate level. 

 

But based on our current politicking, we're effectively a two party state. 

 

 

True, we are. If it was just Labour and National, recent polls show it can go either way, as Greens voters would vote Labour, NZF voters will vote National

 

But we avoid this kingmaker BS and the deals that go with it


sir1963
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  #2362964 29-Nov-2019 15:10
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tdgeek:

 

sir1963:

 

 

 

Or as we have had the majority of voters wanted labour but National won the most seats so National ruled.

 

No mandate at all.

 

And who got to decide on the MPs, why was only a small few able to decide who would be an MP, if you want a mandate then 50%+1 should be needed for each and every MP, otherwise that MP has no mandate from the voters.

 

 

Did you miss the 18 times I said, that in my two party system, where MP;s are elected in electorates, the ruling party is decided by popular vote? It seems to be clearly the most democratic, as the voters decide by casting votes. If you feel that parties like NZF and ACT are wonderful and we need such is in our government, then do what Mike suggests, disclose what deals you will do, as I ONLY want REAL VOTES to be used to decide an election

 

 

And WHO chose the candidates in each electorate ?

 

Sticking unpopular candidates into "safe seats" was a common ploy.

 

I am quite happy with the current system. I want compromise and moderation, I want differing view points.

 

 


JaseNZ
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  #2362966 29-Nov-2019 15:14
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Hmmm , So following the electricity price review the government announced lower power bills would follow. Hard to do that when they are putting their prices up.

 

 

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/117818574/genesis-price-rise-sparks-fears-generators-will-pocket-214m-in-consumer-savings





Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding : Ice cream man , Ice cream man


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