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  #2407310 27-Jan-2020 08:42
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@tdgeek assumption is not fact and you have assumed a lot. My post was not based on assumption it was based on actual professional experience, starting with conducting such interviews, to auditing data and decisions, to managing the process, policy, people and systems.




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  #2407324 27-Jan-2020 08:52
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MikeB4: @tdgeek assumption is not fact and you have assumed a lot. My post was not based on assumption it was based on actual professional experience, starting with conducting such interviews, to auditing data and decisions, to managing the process, policy, people and systems.

 

I'm not assuming, I'm asking. Ive never applied for a pension, but what you are saying is that I have to apply, and provide endless information and evidence despite that the Govt already knows all this about me? If thats the case, then thats the way it is. And if income testing was part of that interview, I then need to provide documentation and evidence despite IRD having that data?

 

If I need to have a big interview, then adding one piece of income information doesnt seem a stretch to me


 
 
 
 


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  #2407365 27-Jan-2020 10:21
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Applicants are required to provide FULL disclosure of their circumstances providing details of residence, accommodation/living arrangements, marital status, income from ALL sources. MSD is required to verify all details and assess fully entitlements, they are dealing with teh public purse and statutory requirements pertaining. They don't just and should not take what is stated on a form or in an interview as being accurate and correct. MSD has extensive powers of enquiry under the various statutes for good reason. 

 

It is also complex how income affects applications and entitlements therefore full details and verification is vital to make correct assessments on behalf of the applicants and the Crown. To say "then adding one piece of income information doesn't seem a stretch to me" is simplistic. Examples how does other pensions and affect entitlement? Income or direct deduction? how is does property income affect entitlement and how does depreciation etc affect that affect? How does income from other investments affect entitlement? how does income from business affect entitlement. Are there medical issues and entitlements that affect how income maybe charged against entitlement. All needs to be determined and assessed at application and renewal. 





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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  #2407368 27-Jan-2020 10:38
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MikeB4:

 

Applicants are required to provide FULL disclosure of their circumstances providing details of residence, accommodation/living arrangements, marital status, income from ALL sources. MSD is required to verify all details and assess fully entitlements, they are dealing with teh public purse and statutory requirements pertaining. They don't just and should not take what is stated on a form or in an interview as being accurate and correct. MSD has extensive powers of enquiry under the various statutes for good reason. 

 

It is also complex how income affects applications and entitlements therefore full details and verification is vital to make correct assessments on behalf of the applicants and the Crown. To say "then adding one piece of income information doesn't seem a stretch to me" is simplistic. Examples how does other pensions and affect entitlement? Income or direct deduction? how is does property income affect entitlement and how does depreciation etc affect that affect? How does income from other investments affect entitlement? how does income from business affect entitlement. Are there medical issues and entitlements that affect how income maybe charged against entitlement. All needs to be determined and assessed at application and renewal. 

 

 

Thanks for the detail. Details of residence, do you mean the address or residency status? If the latter how do I prove that? Birth Certificate?

 

Those forms of income. IRD has the income detail. Depreciation etc are already deducted from business income. yes, when there are other forms of income, pensions thats more complex, but for the majority of simple people who are either retired or still working the income issue is quite simple, its what the IRD already has, and what you would verify, so why bother asking me for my income when MSD can check it, as they will check it anyway

 

Given the vast information that the Govt knows about me, via my name and IRD number, it does seem to be a LOT of red tape, to uncover data that the Govt already has on me. And if I need to go through a gruelling process, as does MSD upon an application, then we do again on renewal?

 

I appreciate the detail Mike


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  #2407377 27-Jan-2020 11:03
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Residence testing is done using birth certs, and other residency papers, aggregated time in NZ is a bit complex and takes some time and emotion. As for IRD remember privacy and confidentiality laws etc. There is limited data sharing under very strict regulations. It all takes time as all care must be taken. MSD staff have a legal and moral requirement to get this right for both Crown and customer, mistakes can be costly financially and emotionally.

 

It sounds easy when the press say oh lets just income test pensions but they generally have no clue. Income testing Superannuation may not bring the savings some believe it could and it is very likely to have the opposite outcome. The gradual raising of the age of qualification commensurate with the lengthening life expectancy will allow for greater sustainability. It would extend the tax take from seniors and their own contributions to retirement income.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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  #2407383 27-Jan-2020 11:28
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For disclosure, although my signature states "Retired IT Manager" I am not in receipt of Superannuation and I am some time away from the current qualifying age. I am not in receipt of any government support except the medical entitlements we all get eg hospital, GP subsidy and prescription subsidy.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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  #2407419 27-Jan-2020 11:47
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

Kiwisaver needs to move from a house deposit scheme, which is what it is to many people, to a retirement scheme, which was the initial intent. If the retirement age is increased that wont kick in for many years, and they can slowly start reducing the pension slowly as more people have more money on Kiwisaver. It also needs to be compulsory. Over time, the "pension is paid for by each employee and their employer. And its income tested. We need to force people to out aside their retirement, then the Govt can just pickup the exceptions, and very old people whose Kiwisaver has run out. It might take 40 years to fully implement (if the law was passed today and the new young employee starts KS today and retires in 40 years), but over time the liability on the Govt will slowly roll back

 

Introduce a KiwiHouse scheme for deposit saving

 

 

So there would be no point in anyone saving more then Kiwi Saver and put min into it. If someone saves twice as much they’d have the same income as someone that has saved half the amount, just they be living off their own savings twice as long.


 
 
 
 


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  #2407434 27-Jan-2020 12:12
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rugrat:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

Kiwisaver needs to move from a house deposit scheme, which is what it is to many people, to a retirement scheme, which was the initial intent. If the retirement age is increased that wont kick in for many years, and they can slowly start reducing the pension slowly as more people have more money on Kiwisaver. It also needs to be compulsory. Over time, the "pension is paid for by each employee and their employer. And its income tested. We need to force people to out aside their retirement, then the Govt can just pickup the exceptions, and very old people whose Kiwisaver has run out. It might take 40 years to fully implement (if the law was passed today and the new young employee starts KS today and retires in 40 years), but over time the liability on the Govt will slowly roll back

 

Introduce a KiwiHouse scheme for deposit saving

 

 

So there would be no point in anyone saving more then Kiwi Saver and put min into it. If someone saves twice as much they’d have the same income as someone that has saved half the amount, just they be living off their own savings twice as long.

 

 

I would see that Kiwisaver is compulsory, as you MUST provide your own retirement. That also means that the contribution level is compulsory. Whatever $ that would work out for a 40 year + working life thats your retirement. If that metric ran out of money at age 80 for example, then from age 80 you get the Govt pension. You cant draw it out and pickup a Maserati with it. So, say we have a standard compulsory contribution that will see you from age 65 or 67 to age 80 or 85. If you contribute more than the set standard, you can draw it out or draw on it as and when needed, as that's "extra" and doesnt affect your standard pension thats paid from your Kiwisaver

 

So you have to contribute, and you can save more if you wish or you could save elsewhere if you wish

 

In a perfect world the Govt ceases pensions, as you save for your own, and the employer contributes up to 3% as now. There will be exceptions, as maybe you outlive the retirement fund so Govt pays it, there will be the unemployed, unemployables, beneficiaries who have no or little Kiwisaver so Govt pays that. To be sustainable we need to save up for our own retirement in the future


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  #2407482 27-Jan-2020 12:33
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tdgeek:

 

I would see that Kiwisaver is compulsory, as you MUST provide your own retirement. That also means that the contribution level is compulsory. Whatever $ that would work out for a 40 year + working life thats your retirement. If that metric ran out of money at age 80 for example, then from age 80 you get the Govt pension. You cant draw it out and pickup a Maserati with it. So, say we have a standard compulsory contribution that will see you from age 65 or 67 to age 80 or 85. If you contribute more than the set standard, you can draw it out or draw on it as and when needed, as that's "extra" and doesnt affect your standard pension thats paid from your Kiwisaver

 

So you have to contribute, and you can save more if you wish or you could save elsewhere if you wish

 

In a perfect world the Govt ceases pensions, as you save for your own, and the employer contributes up to 3% as now. There will be exceptions, as maybe you outlive the retirement fund so Govt pays it, there will be the unemployed, unemployables, beneficiaries who have no or little Kiwisaver so Govt pays that. To be sustainable we need to save up for our own retirement in the future

 

 

OK so we bring in a compulsory retirement saving. At what percentage of income is this set at 3%, 5%, 20%? To make this affordable for those with mortgages, families, rentals . to pay for etc what percentage do we drop income tax? If income tax is reduced how do we fund payment of superannuation to those that were unable to save due to age, financial position, medical etc etc 

 

 





Mike
Change Management Consultant
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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  #2407495 27-Jan-2020 13:05
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MikeB4:

 

tdgeek:

 

I would see that Kiwisaver is compulsory, as you MUST provide your own retirement. That also means that the contribution level is compulsory. Whatever $ that would work out for a 40 year + working life thats your retirement. If that metric ran out of money at age 80 for example, then from age 80 you get the Govt pension. You cant draw it out and pickup a Maserati with it. So, say we have a standard compulsory contribution that will see you from age 65 or 67 to age 80 or 85. If you contribute more than the set standard, you can draw it out or draw on it as and when needed, as that's "extra" and doesnt affect your standard pension thats paid from your Kiwisaver

 

So you have to contribute, and you can save more if you wish or you could save elsewhere if you wish

 

In a perfect world the Govt ceases pensions, as you save for your own, and the employer contributes up to 3% as now. There will be exceptions, as maybe you outlive the retirement fund so Govt pays it, there will be the unemployed, unemployables, beneficiaries who have no or little Kiwisaver so Govt pays that. To be sustainable we need to save up for our own retirement in the future

 

 

OK so we bring in a compulsory retirement saving. At what percentage of income is this set at 3%, 5%, 20%? To make this affordable for those with mortgages, families, rentals . to pay for etc what percentage do we drop income tax? If income tax is reduced how do we fund payment of superannuation to those that were unable to save due to age, financial position, medical etc etc 

 

 

 

 

Someone has to pay for it as its not sustainable with an aging population. Ok if we dont want to be affected, drop my suggestion and let the Govt pay for it all. How will they do that? Drop the budget expenditure for heath and education? Or raise taxes? So we can then fund millionaires and Maserati drivers a free pension?

 

The money has to come from somewhere, but if you want to preserve everyones income, and tax, then we cut spending harshly in the budget

 

Or will raising the retirement age 2 years magically solve everything?

 

Why do you suggest we drop income tax and then you complain to me how to we fund super for the rest? You made that all up so you can bite back.

 

There will be a huge and growing cost for pensions. You advocate paying pensions to millionaires so an income test is not possible. We already fund pensions, so we will fund pensions for those that cannot obtain their own retirement fund, we will fund pensions for millionaires and everyone else from a bucket of stagnant taxation and growing pensioner numbers, that will run out of money so we need to cut health education etc. Its just a numbers game, the numbers will go against us and the funds for the extra retirees has to come from somewhere. It can only come from extra tax or reduced Govt spending

 

This is a long standing known issue, and if simply extending retirement 2 years was the magic bullet, then there is no apparent crisis after all? Or is there?


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  #2407502 27-Jan-2020 13:15
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How much money do you people think workers have to spare? certainly not enough to pay rents, transport costs, save for houses AND save for retirements. Paid overtime is a thing of the past for many. 

 

Means-testing Super is also a pretty tough sell given returns are so low on passive investments - even with a substantial nest-egg, and having done all the right things, you'd likely be making less after tax than the super you'd be disqualified from getting based on your wealth. That doesn't sound that fair either. 

 

The whole thing is broken. Not sure how we fix it. You've also then got the issue of people under 40 having worked a decent chunk of their careers to cover the basics that others covered off much earlier who would then be having the rules changed on them for something yet again, effectively becoming a crash-test generation the whole way though.

 

And just to make things really interesting, you could argue that on an equity basis, men (particular Maori men) should be able to retire earlier than women as they live longer. Can't see that flying somehow. 


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  #2407506 27-Jan-2020 13:21
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There is no one answer to address this very complex issue. Raising the age of entitlement is one step, Kiwi Saver is one step, reducing dependency on other Income Support is one step, increasing NZ earning capabilities and moving to higher income nation thus increasing the tax take is one step, increasing our population in a sustainable way is one step.

 

I was not baiting you, if we make retirement savings compulsory that does not make retirement savings suddenly affordable for low income and families. There would need to be an immediate tax reduction or earnings increase to allow for that, therefore making superannuation for those who are older and don't have time to save or are retired now far less sustainable, do you understand where I am coming from.





Mike
Change Management Consultant
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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  #2407508 27-Jan-2020 13:28
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GV27:

 

How much money do you people think workers have to spare? certainly not enough to pay rents, transport costs, save for houses AND save for retirements. Paid overtime is a thing of the past for many. 

 

Means-testing Super is also a pretty tough sell given returns are so low on passive investments - even with a substantial nest-egg, and having done all the right things, you'd likely be making less after tax than the super you'd be disqualified from getting based on your wealth. That doesn't sound that fair either. 

 

The whole thing is broken. Not sure how we fix it. You've also then got the issue of people under 40 having worked a decent chunk of their careers to cover the basics that others covered off much earlier who would then be having the rules changed on them for something yet again, effectively becoming a crash-test generation the whole way though.

 

And just to make things really interesting, you could argue that on an equity basis, men (particular Maori men) should be able to retire earlier than women as they live longer. Can't see that flying somehow. 

 

 

I don't know how to fix it either, just making suggestions. What i do know, is that someone has to pay for what will be a larger % of retirees to workers, as well as a larger volume of retirees, that's a double hit

 

So, we can't means test.

 

We can't save for our own individual retirements as per my suggestion, although oddly, many are happy to pay into Kiwisaver. yet when I suggest that, all hell breaks  loose

 

We can't increase taxes as everyone will hate on that

 

We can't reduce spending on health and education and everything else

 

 

 

So we will have a massively huge multi billion dollar hole every year that no one wants to find a solution for. However you cut it, someone has to pay. 


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  #2407514 27-Jan-2020 13:37
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MikeB4:

 

There is no one answer to address this very complex issue. Raising the age of entitlement is one step, Kiwi Saver is one step, reducing dependency on other Income Support is one step, increasing NZ earning capabilities and moving to higher income nation thus increasing the tax take is one step, increasing our population in a sustainable way is one step.

 

I was not baiting you, if we make retirement savings compulsory that does not make retirement savings suddenly affordable for low income and families. There would need to be an immediate tax reduction or earnings increase to allow for that, therefore making superannuation for those who are older and don't have time to save or are retired now far less sustainable, do you understand where I am coming from.

 

 

I think so. Lower income people would fall into the pool that Govt still has to pay for, as they cannot afford more costs. As a ballpark, that might include lower income people who don't contribute to Kiwisaver, for the same reasons. That level of income. OR they would be forced into Kiwisaver, but the Govt would provide some or most of the contribution. Im not suggesting that we lumber poor people with yet more costs. We are a social welfare state, that's social welfare in action. The rest of us need to pay, somehow, the huge extra cost. As you say, there are many possible options, but we cannot avoid the costs of having more pensions to pay for, funded by fewer taxpayers.


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  #2407521 27-Jan-2020 13:52
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tdgeek:

 

We can't save for our own individual retirements as per my suggestion, although oddly, many are happy to pay into Kiwisaver. yet when I suggest that, all hell breaks  loose

 

 

I suspect the framing of the Kiwisaver debate will change given a decent market shock and people see their balances shrink by 20% in a month or similar. Almost none of the 'how much do you need to save' calculators factor in a recession or likely market drop into their long-term forecasts, which is borderline misleading tbh. And if you're a long time away from retirement, that Kiwisaver deduction might as well be a tax. It's almost dead money but not quite - just very abstract income in the sense that you're being taxed on it now but you can't use it for decades. 

 

I would rather be paying that 4% from my salary directly to the Government to use as they see fit rather than being forced to ride the markets by law. Maybe that is the product we are missing from the debate - guaranteed, inflation-adjusted crown-backed annuities to be paid out regardless of means or other income. 


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