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  #2416305 11-Feb-2020 17:46
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Rikkitic:

Handle9:


How is that arrogant? Someone who couldn't place Iran on a map or have any clue about how the US political system works is qualified to tell the US how to run their country?

If there was constant outrage from the US about Jacinda Adern we would consider them to be ignorant and clueless about New Zealand, mostly because they would be.

I didn't make any reference to formal education, I made reference to ignorance. It is a different thing


I was speaking figuratively. The point stands. 


I don't think lacking knowledge of geography or politics necessarily disqualifies someone from possessing basic values of decency and common sense. You are the one trying to argue that a diploma should be required before someone can venture an opinion on anything.


 


 



You are quite simply illustrating my point. You are saying that uninformed rants are totally worthwhile. In other words exactly what Trump does.

What impact does Trump have on you and what impact do you think shouting at the moon will have on him? It all seems pretty pointless.

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  #2416346 11-Feb-2020 18:05
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Handle9:

 

You are quite simply illustrating my point. You are saying that uninformed rants are totally worthwhile. In other words exactly what Trump does.

What impact does Trump have on you and what impact do you think shouting at the moon will have on him? It all seems pretty pointless.

 

I am saying that blanket dismissal of 'uninformed rants' (as you put it) on the basis of an uninformed generalisation about their presumed likely worth is arrogant. 

 

Shouting at the moon has a lot of value. It makes me feel better.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 


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  #2416380 11-Feb-2020 19:52
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Handle9:
How is that arrogant? Someone who couldn't place Iran on a map or have any clue about how the US political system works is qualified to tell the US how to run their country?

 

Not being able to find places on maps has never stopped Americans from supporting invasions and waging war against other countries, so this to me is a particularly hilarious example you've chosen to use. 




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  #2416381 11-Feb-2020 19:52
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Rikkitic:

 

Handle9:

 

You are quite simply illustrating my point. You are saying that uninformed rants are totally worthwhile. In other words exactly what Trump does.

What impact does Trump have on you and what impact do you think shouting at the moon will have on him? It all seems pretty pointless.

 

I am saying that blanket dismissal of 'uninformed rants' (as you put it) on the basis of an uninformed generalisation about their presumed likely worth is arrogant. 

 

Shouting at the moon has a lot of value. It makes me feel better.

 

 

Why would anyone give any credence to someone commenting on something they haven't bothered to understand? In previous days we heard crackpots at the pub, had a bit of a laugh and moved on with our lives. Now we need to be outraged about it on the internet.

 

If you feel that is arrogant I don't really care. You have no impact on my life and I have no impact on yours. I'm not going to worry about whether one person on the internet finds me arrogant as I have far more important things to expend energy on.

 

If you can show me some logic why my world view should change then I am interested. If you can explain to me something I didn't previously understand that is cool and I am very open to listening. If you want to shout I switch off. 

 

The world is a big place with many things that are unjust, unkind or criminal. Why bother expending energy shouting about something that you can not influence? If you feel so strongly about American politics why don't you move to America and influence their process?


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  #2416431 11-Feb-2020 20:22
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Handle9:

 

Why would anyone give any credence to someone commenting on something they haven't bothered to understand? In previous days we heard crackpots at the pub, had a bit of a laugh and moved on with our lives. Now we need to be outraged about it on the internet.

 

If you feel that is arrogant I don't really care. You have no impact on my life and I have no impact on yours. I'm not going to worry about whether one person on the internet finds me arrogant as I have far more important things to expend energy on.

 

If you can show me some logic why my world view should change then I am interested. If you can explain to me something I didn't previously understand that is cool and I am very open to listening. If you want to shout I switch off. 

 

The world is a big place with many things that are unjust, unkind or criminal. Why bother expending energy shouting about something that you can not influence? If you feel so strongly about American politics why don't you move to America and influence their process?

 

 

You seem very defensive about being labelled arrogant. You have also devoted a lot of posts to something you say you don't care about. 

 

I have no interest in persuading you to a different point of view. I am not the one who started this thread. I am also not the only one in the president thread who despises Trump and his enablers. For some reason you have singled me out (because you are a fan?) but I'm just one person of many who opposes Trump and all he represents. Also, I am the one who responded to your thread.

 

I have no desire to live in America. Been there, done that. That does not mean I am not entitled to voice an opinion about the things happening there. You don't live in New Zealand, but that does not stop you from commenting on our local politics. Why should it?

 

I think it is time to live and let live. I am happy to cross swords with you any time, any place, but I have said all I intend to in this thread. Live long and prosper.

 

 

 

 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 




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  #2416435 11-Feb-2020 20:53
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Rikkitic:

 

Handle9:

 

Why would anyone give any credence to someone commenting on something they haven't bothered to understand? In previous days we heard crackpots at the pub, had a bit of a laugh and moved on with our lives. Now we need to be outraged about it on the internet.

 

If you feel that is arrogant I don't really care. You have no impact on my life and I have no impact on yours. I'm not going to worry about whether one person on the internet finds me arrogant as I have far more important things to expend energy on.

 

If you can show me some logic why my world view should change then I am interested. If you can explain to me something I didn't previously understand that is cool and I am very open to listening. If you want to shout I switch off. 

 

The world is a big place with many things that are unjust, unkind or criminal. Why bother expending energy shouting about something that you can not influence? If you feel so strongly about American politics why don't you move to America and influence their process?

 

 

You seem very defensive about being labelled arrogant. You have also devoted a lot of posts to something you say you don't care about. 

 

I have no interest in persuading you to a different point of view. I am not the one who started this thread. I am also not the only one in the president thread who despises Trump and his enablers. For some reason you have singled me out (because you are a fan?) but I'm just one person of many who opposes Trump and all he represents. Also, I am the one who responded to your thread.

 

I have no desire to live in America. Been there, done that. That does not mean I am not entitled to voice an opinion about the things happening there. You don't live in New Zealand, but that does not stop you from commenting on our local politics. Why should it?

 

I think it is time to live and let live. I am happy to cross swords with you any time, any place, but I have said all I intend to in this thread. Live long and prosper.

 

 

I'm not sure why you feel the need to put words in other peoples mouth or label people. It is fairly symptomatic of the outrage culture that exists now. Anyone who asks questions or disagrees with your world view now needs a label. Funnily enough this is exactly what Trump does.

 

I guess you do it to provoke a reaction.

 

It doesn't seem to serve any useful purpose other than to make people more outraged with each other and reinforce more entrenched positions. To me this is a far bigger problem than someone saying something you don't like.




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  #2416438 11-Feb-2020 20:57
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SJB:

 

Of course it affects us here.

 

If that moron in the WH decided on a whim to nuke North Korea you could watch your neighbors skin start to peel off around 6 months later. And your own of course.

 

 

There's a fairly big difference between being informed about what's going on and having crazy emotional reactions to domestic politics in other countries. The Brexit thread was another example of that where there were weird posts asserting all sorts of opinions about what people in Britain wanted. The posters had no clue but were adamant and clearly felt very strongly about it.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #2416509 12-Feb-2020 07:52
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Handle9:

 

The posters had no clue but were adamant and clearly felt very strongly about it.

 

 

So they have no idea, but you speak with total insight and therefore know that they are wrong? I'm not seeing much here other than a refusal to entertain thoughts that might be different to your own. 

 

I'll give you three examples of how the US's foreign policy decisions directly impact us here:

 

1) Huawei/5G: Pressure from the US on intelligence allies to dump Huawei. This is a major sticking point at the moment as governments are unsure about committing to Huawei equipment - not on the basis of any evidence, but rather political consequences. 

 

2) Trade: Speaking of Huawei, have you tried getting a Huawei flagship recently with Official Android support? You can't. Because the US blacklisted them as part of their ongoing trade dispute. So there's a major innovator dumped from the smartphone market, which affects consumers whose countries have open and free trade arrangements with China and don't believe in abusing national security concerns for leverage in trade wars. 

 

3) As mentioned: Fuel costs. Fuel price increases radiate through our entire supply chain. If Trump wakes up and decides he fancies a spot of the old extra-judicial assassination of a foreign power's figurehead, in another country altogether, it costs more for me to get to work. My food costs more. Basically anything moved by a truck costs more. 

 

I'd rather not have to care about American politics, but it is naive to think that American politics does not impose itself on every day life, and I would contend that is by design and not by accident.  


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  #2416542 12-Feb-2020 09:12
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Breaking news.

 


Person living in comfort as a privileged beneficiary of tyrannical regime - where even criticism of tyrants is a crime that could be punished by torture - is perplexed as to the reasons why people bother criticising tyranny.

 

 


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  #2416742 12-Feb-2020 15:15
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Trump has lowered the tone of the worldwide political landscape. He has demonstrated that to be a leader in the modern age you don't need to be knowledgable, empathatic, or even care about your country or the people in it.

 

And when he gets re-elected (and he will) that will send an even stronger message. It will show others like Trump that his election wasn't an anomaly, and embolden them even more.

 

Perhaps people get so worked up because if it can happen in "the land of the free", it can happen anywhere.




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  #2416759 12-Feb-2020 16:45
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Fred99:

Breaking news.



Person living in comfort as a privileged beneficiary of tyrannical regime - where even criticism of tyrants is a crime that could be punished by torture - is perplexed as to the reasons why people bother criticising tyranny.


 



Ahh such a witty a erudite reply. It's far easier to attack people than discuss the topic I guess. I hope it made you feel better.



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  #2416765 12-Feb-2020 17:00
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GV27:

Handle9:


The posters had no clue but were adamant and clearly felt very strongly about it.



So they have no idea, but you speak with total insight and therefore know that they are wrong? I'm not seeing much here other than a refusal to entertain thoughts that might be different to your own. 


I'll give you three examples of how the US's foreign policy decisions directly impact us here:


1) Huawei/5G: Pressure from the US on intelligence allies to dump Huawei. This is a major sticking point at the moment as governments are unsure about committing to Huawei equipment - not on the basis of any evidence, but rather political consequences. 


2) Trade: Speaking of Huawei, have you tried getting a Huawei flagship recently with Official Android support? You can't. Because the US blacklisted them as part of their ongoing trade dispute. So there's a major innovator dumped from the smartphone market, which affects consumers whose countries have open and free trade arrangements with China and don't believe in abusing national security concerns for leverage in trade wars. 


3) As mentioned: Fuel costs. Fuel price increases radiate through our entire supply chain. If Trump wakes up and decides he fancies a spot of the old extra-judicial assassination of a foreign power's figurehead, in another country altogether, it costs more for me to get to work. My food costs more. Basically anything moved by a truck costs more. 


I'd rather not have to care about American politics, but it is naive to think that American politics does not impose itself on every day life, and I would contend that is by design and not by accident.  



I totally agree that it's important to be informed about what the US is doing. They have an impact internationally. There is a difference between being informed and being constantly outraged and shouting about it.

I don't have total insight which is why I tend to avoid making absolutist statements or being too extreme. The more that I travel the more I understand why certain countries behave the way they do. The US is quite a different society to New Zealand.m

What doesn't make sense is being constantly outraged about what Trump, Clinton or some other minor US politician said this week. Lots of politicians globally make all sorts of idiotic statements as it plays well in their domestic market. This isn't particularly new, it tends to ebb and flow over the years.

Muldoon and Peters are good examples of this in New Zealand.

The obsessive behaviour is getting more extreme from this who feel the need to constantly spout off about Trump, Q-Anon or vaccines. There doesn't seem to be any actual actions just a lot of shouting.

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  #2416778 12-Feb-2020 17:17
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Handle9:

Ahh such a witty a erudite reply. It's far easier to attack people than discuss the topic I guess. I hope it made you feel better.

 

You did imply that people criticising Trump are unhinged - and compare them to conspiracy theorists etc, so please don't come the "personal attack" line when you've been firing shots at people left right and centre, and deflecting rather than giving coherent replies when people have given you many good examples of how Trump's lunacy has had direct effects on them.




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  #2416839 12-Feb-2020 19:33
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Fred99:

 

Handle9:

Ahh such a witty a erudite reply. It's far easier to attack people than discuss the topic I guess. I hope it made you feel better.

 

You did imply that people criticising Trump are unhinged - and compare them to conspiracy theorists etc, so please don't come the "personal attack" line when you've been firing shots at people left right and centre, and deflecting rather than giving coherent replies when people have given you many good examples of how Trump's lunacy has had direct effects on them.

 

 

I didn't say that all people who criticise Trump are unhinged? I don't agree with that. I do question what people who rant and rave about any political position overseas are trying to achieve. That's why I started this thread.

 

I do believe that some of the people who go crazy about Trump are just as crazy as the right wing Q-Anon types. Their behaviour is the same and in many cases they are informed in the same way - by a social media echo chamber. Both groups are just as dangerous to a functional electorate as each other as they are being manipulated by social media.


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  #2416863 12-Feb-2020 20:24
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Handle9:

 

 

 

 

OK, let's do a reset on that - if I've offended you, then sorry.

 

On more general (non lunatic fringe) criticism of tyrants, then I'm sure that tyrannical governments care very much about how they're being portrayed globally. If that wasn't true, then they wouldn't fight back very hard via social media.  Some seem to be pretty good at it too, using data analysis and troll factories to saturate (exactly where and how for best effect) on social media (including forums) to best disseminate propaganda. 

 

I'd always associated the true loonies - conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers, etc with the far right - never the "liberals" as far as I've seen.


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