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Devastation by stupidity
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  #2459320 11-Apr-2020 12:11
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I basically agree with you but I think she might be entitled to extra points in view of the magnitude of the crises she has had to deal with. It is not just a matter of how long someone can squat in office.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #2459328 11-Apr-2020 12:22
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OldGeek: While the results of the last election saw Labour do far better under her leadership they were still well below National.

 

....

 

If Ardern is to be considered a great leader, her current history is far too short.  All of our great leaders achieved greatness that necessarily involved winning multiple general elections (mostly consecutive) as well as many other notable achievements over a far longer period that the 3 years or so Ardern has had so far.

 

The issue is that statement is that Labour have coalition partners, National have none apart from a "cup of tea" agreement. As hasn't Bridges ruled out working with NZF?

 

Isn't the sign of good leadership and healthy democracy is keeping a coalition together and being able to produce results involving disparate parties and ideals.

 

Or is the FPP authoritarian single party rule preferable? Why did Arden reach out to National they refused the first time but then National finally came to the party. How is that not a sign of excellent leadership. As can you HONESTLY say that if the roles were reversed that National would even consider doing the same?





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  #2459335 11-Apr-2020 13:04
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Responding to @bartender:

 

"The issue is that statement is that Labour have coalition partners, National have none apart from a "cup of tea" agreement. As hasn't Bridges ruled out working with NZF?"

 

Yes Bridges has, and for very good reason.

 

"Isn't the sign of good leadership and healthy democracy is keeping a coalition together and being able to produce results involving disparate parties and ideals."

 

Ardern has only been able to keep the coalition together by accepting every NZF demand when they oppose Labour.  She could, for example, have dismissed Minister Clark for flouting the lock-down rules because he is a Labour Minister.  She did not, for example, dismiss Minister Jones (the published coalition agreement allows this but if Jones were dismissed his replacement would be another NZF MP) for his racist rants.  She clearly indicated her frustration at a perception she could not sanction Jones at the time, indicating that either she does not know the powers that she has or that there is an unpublished coalition agreement that prohibits this.

 

"Or is the FPP authoritarian single party rule preferable? Why did Arden reach out to National they refused the first time but then National finally came to the party. How is that not a sign of excellent leadership. As can you HONESTLY say that if the roles were reversed that National would even consider doing the same?"

 

The cited video is 13 minutes long.  I have watched the first few minutes and this involved the usual Parliamentary Question Time performances.  If the offer was made then yes it was a good thing to do, but one good decision does not a great leader make.  Under FPP, the governing party, if I recall correctly, won with at worst under 40% of the popular vote.  Under MMP this is simply not possible.  No party is likely ever to win over 60 electorate seats meaning that any one party getting 61 seats would need to garner over 50% of the party vote to get the required top-up of list MPs to get to 61 or more.  This has never happened to date and if it did then that party has a massive level of demonstrable support to form a Government alone.





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  #2459368 11-Apr-2020 15:09
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"This country, New Zealand, has very few Covid-19 deaths. See how 'this small Pacific Island' did it"

CNN


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  #2459374 11-Apr-2020 15:21
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OldGeek:

Responding to @bartender:


"The issue is that statement is that Labour have coalition partners, National have none apart from a "cup of tea" agreement. As hasn't Bridges ruled out working with NZF?"


Yes Bridges has, and for very good reason.


So how come there aren't any other parties that National can find to build a coalition with? The Maori party was decimated in the last election after being in coalition with them. Why did that happen? There is no one in the centre and certainly to the right of them as viable coalition parties.
Perhaps they just haven't realised that society has changed and refuse to change with it.

OldGeek: Ardern has only been able to keep the coalition together by accepting every NZF demand when they oppose Labour.  She could, for example, have dismissed Minister Clark for flouting the lock-down rules because he is a Labour Minister.  She did not, for example, dismiss Minister Jones (the published coalition agreement allows this but if Jones were dismissed his replacement would be another NZF MP) for his racist rants.  She clearly indicated her frustration at a perception she could not sanction Jones at the time, indicating that either she does not know the powers that she has or that there is an unpublished coalition agreement that prohibits this.


"Or is the FPP authoritarian single party rule preferable? Why did Arden reach out to National they refused the first time but then National finally came to the party. How is that not a sign of excellent leadership. As can you HONESTLY say that if the roles were reversed that National would even consider doing the same?"


The cited video is 13 minutes long.  I have watched the first few minutes and this involved the usual Parliamentary Question Time performances.  If the offer was made then yes it was a good thing to do, but one good decision does not a great leader make.  Under FPP, the governing party, if I recall correctly, won with at worst under 40% of the popular vote.  Under MMP this is simply not possible.  No party is likely ever to win over 60 electorate seats meaning that any one party getting 61 seats would need to garner over 50% of the party vote to get the required top-up of list MPs to get to 61 or more.  This has never happened to date and if it did then that party has a massive level of demonstrable support to form a Government alone.


Yet that video as you said was 13 mins ago and it did contain the "usual parliamentary antics" from Simon Bridges.
This was while Italy was undergoing a massive number of deaths. Yet National doesn't want to work together.
How is that anything other than an utter failure from National to not be able to see the signs internationally and stop behaving like idiots for the good of the country.

Asking the question again as you didn't answer it last time... If the roles were reversed and National were in power, could you EVER see them reaching to Labour for the good of our democracy... As I can't see it.

That is the sign of leadership, doing what is right for OUR country irrespective of politics.




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  #2459378 11-Apr-2020 15:34
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BarTender:

 

Asking the question again as you didn't answer it last time... If the roles were reversed and National were in power, could you EVER see them reaching to Labour for the good of our democracy... As I can't see it.

That is the sign of leadership, doing what is right for OUR country irrespective of politics.

 

The answer to that question depends on your political orientation.  Those that believe in Ardern would answer NO.  Those that believe in Bridges will answer YES.  I consider that sort of conjecture pointless.





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Devastation by stupidity
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  #2459419 11-Apr-2020 15:44
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OldGeek:

 

BarTender:

 

Asking the question again as you didn't answer it last time... If the roles were reversed and National were in power, could you EVER see them reaching to Labour for the good of our democracy... As I can't see it.

That is the sign of leadership, doing what is right for OUR country irrespective of politics.

 

The answer to that question depends on your political orientation.  Those that believe in Ardern would answer NO.  Those that believe in Bridges will answer YES.  I consider that sort of conjecture pointless.

 

 

I believe in Ardern. I believe other National leaders at other times would have reached out in the same situation. Not this one at this time, though.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 


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  #2459440 11-Apr-2020 16:19
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Rikkitic:

 

OldGeek: The answer to that question depends on your political orientation.  Those that believe in Ardern would answer NO.  Those that believe in Bridges will answer YES.  I consider that sort of conjecture pointless.

 

 

I believe in Ardern. I believe other National leaders at other times would have reached out in the same situation. Not this one at this time, though.

 

 

That is my view too @Rikkitic. I could have seen it under the Key govt, and even Bill English was a more savvy player in that regards.

 

If @OldGeek spent any time looking at how Bridges has behaved since Covid19 started, quite frankly he has been an complete Muppet. It's all available on-demand.

 

Do a search for Bridges from 1 Feb until 20 March when Parliament shut down, see the questions he was asking.

 

Ardern taking seriously about the impacts that Covid will bring and Bridges and the rest of the national front bench behaving terribly every single time.

 

You may consider it conjecture, but considering his petulant response to driving the country after the BS of poor internet and how he has behaved I suspect nothing he would do could ever be seen as wrong.

 

Find me one actual thing he has come up with at least 10 days in advance since anything that the government does that Bridges was asking for 3 days beforehand he would have already had advance notice on, as that IS the right thing to do for the good of our country and Bridges is just making hay on soon-to-be-announced government policy.

 

We only need to look to the US to see how ineffectual, incompetent and ideologically driven political leadership has on their country can do. I am not saying Bridges is anywhere near as dumb as Trump, but he sure gives him a run for his money.





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  #2459441 11-Apr-2020 16:22
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OldGeek:

 

BarTender:

 

Asking the question again as you didn't answer it last time... If the roles were reversed and National were in power, could you EVER see them reaching to Labour for the good of our democracy... As I can't see it.

That is the sign of leadership, doing what is right for OUR country irrespective of politics.

 

The answer to that question depends on your political orientation.  Those that believe in Ardern would answer NO.  Those that believe in Bridges will answer YES.  I consider that sort of conjecture pointless.

 

 

Pointless it is, if the political orientation is the ONLY think that matters. Thats where you need swing voters. Or when you see a leader or an MP look at Simon Bridges not staying at home. not staying in Wellington, stopping for fuel and food outside of his region, yet doesnt bother to score easy political points, they instead get on with it. The flaw in your points is that you have let us know that facts don't matter, your political party of choice is all that matters. Lets hope your political party of choice is always right, and always will be.  


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  #2460527 13-Apr-2020 13:58
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From the main thread as its political. 

 

GV27:

 

 

 

There is plenty of scope for an enquiry. The fitness of the pandemic plan (which we have for a reason), the lag between press conference announcements filtering through to action on the ground (GP/Lab level), statements about the borders being 'closed' when they clearly were not, testing availability, ambiguity around legal status of police orders, lack of projections of unemployment figures until later this week, trading over public holidays, the State of Emergency powers etc. 

 

There's actually quite a lot to unpack here. I think given we have turned the country off for four weeks minimum and put thousands out of work, a Royal Commission is the bare minimum. If you take Pike River as a benchmark for what qualifies for a Royal Commission of Inquiry then I'd say this meets the threshold. But the key will be when - they tend to take months/years and our response for Covid-19 will be ongoing for quite some time. 

 

 

Ok, the key is blame. Got that. Had we decided to have meetings for 3 months to get everything right, then maybe. But if its just about blame, well, ok. Who will be held to such as Inquiry? I assume it will be WHO as they advise us, Both major parties as they have worked together. (Yes I am aware of a change that under discussion being proposed, by Simon just ahead of a decision to make it look like he caused the change.) and the many experts that were part of this effort? If you are concerned that they turned off the country for a month, is it better to flatten the curve so we suffer over 6 months? Or 12 months.  Or in fact lockdown end of January? As for the pandemic plan thats been in place for some time, who did that? I assume thats just a National Government updated document at the time, so we blame them instead? Off course not. At the end of the day, you feel its just a political issue, so good brownie points to get where the blame will only be assessed on the current Government? It would be great if every issue with this virus was known to all and all of it was foreseen. Its disappointing that the benefit of hindsight is purposefully ignored. 


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  #2460537 13-Apr-2020 14:07
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tdgeek:

 

From the main thread as its political. 

 

GV27:

 

There is plenty of scope for an enquiry. The fitness of the pandemic plan (which we have for a reason), the lag between press conference announcements filtering through to action on the ground (GP/Lab level), statements about the borders being 'closed' when they clearly were not, testing availability, ambiguity around legal status of police orders, lack of projections of unemployment figures until later this week, trading over public holidays, the State of Emergency powers etc. 

 

There's actually quite a lot to unpack here. I think given we have turned the country off for four weeks minimum and put thousands out of work, a Royal Commission is the bare minimum. If you take Pike River as a benchmark for what qualifies for a Royal Commission of Inquiry then I'd say this meets the threshold. But the key will be when - they tend to take months/years and our response for Covid-19 will be ongoing for quite some time. 

 

 

Ok, the key is blame. Got that. Had we decided to have meetings for 3 months to get everything right, then maybe. But if its just about blame, well, ok. Who will be held to such as Inquiry? I assume it will be WHO as they advise us, Both major parties as they have worked together. (Yes I am aware of a change that under discussion being proposed, by Simon just ahead of a decision to make it look like he caused the change.) and the many experts that were part of this effort? If you are concerned that they turned off the country for a month, is it better to flatten the curve so we suffer over 6 months? Or 12 months.  Or in fact lockdown end of January? As for the pandemic plan thats been in place for some time, who did that? I assume thats just a National Government updated document at the time, so we blame them instead? Off course not. At the end of the day, you feel its just a political issue, so good brownie points to get where the blame will only be assessed on the current Government? It would be great if every issue with this virus was known to all and all of it was foreseen. Its disappointing that the benefit of hindsight is purposefully ignored. 

 

 

It's not blame. It seems like a good time to stop and take stock of what our planning for a future event looks like. I wouldn't even say it's a political issue - I think most countries will have found their pandemic plans were not up to scratch in the last few months. 

 

I'm suggesting we make use of hindsight in the best possible way - by improving our resilience should something else come along. The 'alert level system' is a good example of that. It was put together in January and refined until the PM announced it - do we carry that forward, do we amend it with what we've learned, do we need something different with a level zero like GNS does, etc. A lot of the decisions we made on the fly may not turn out to be right, but we need to know what they should have been if we end up in this situation again. 

 

Given the wide-ranging nature of the response (MSD, Health, Customs, Police, AG, Civil Defence, etc) I think a Royal Commission is probably the best way to approach it rather than a dozen or so different agencies doing their own reviews in isolation. 


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  #2460559 13-Apr-2020 15:01
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GV27:

 

It's not blame. It seems like a good time to stop and take stock of what our planning for a future event looks like. I wouldn't even say it's a political issue - I think most countries will have found their pandemic plans were not up to scratch in the last few months. 

 

I'm suggesting we make use of hindsight in the best possible way - by improving our resilience should something else come along. The 'alert level system' is a good example of that. It was put together in January and refined until the PM announced it - do we carry that forward, do we amend it with what we've learned, do we need something different with a level zero like GNS does, etc. A lot of the decisions we made on the fly may not turn out to be right, but we need to know what they should have been if we end up in this situation again. 

 

Given the wide-ranging nature of the response (MSD, Health, Customs, Police, AG, Civil Defence, etc) I think a Royal Commission is probably the best way to approach it rather than a dozen or so different agencies doing their own reviews in isolation. 

 

 

It goes without saying it will be reviewed. Did a Royal Commission review this when it was created? Are they involved in updates based on global epidemics? It appears from what I see is no. Its led by the Ministry of Health. As I see it, Ministry of Health will review the NZ Pandemic Plan once COVID-19 is over

 

The plan covers Keep It Out, etc. There is a wide range of detail the plan doesnt cover, and the alert levels for us in 2020 was one example of the detail, for this virus, for this time. The next virus will her different attributes, so whatever measures the Government of the day puts into place, they will suit that thread not COVID-19. So it cannot be included, it in any case was just the mechanism to enact a lockdown for this virus.  Each virus differs, unless you have a SARS plan and COVID 19 plan a Spanish Flu plan, you make the overall plan a cover all for all the known scenarios. COVID-19 has added new scenarios, that will cause the plan to be updated to cater for another virus that has these attributes

 

All countries pandemic plans were up to scratch. They just didn't include a threat with COVID-19 attributes. Therefore learning's to update the plans. 

 

The political side of this is one person runs a business so has a very different view to another who doesn't. Therefore if it doesnt suit the business its a bad move. So its a neverending list of arguments why any move is wrong. The MoH knows best, thats my opinion. 


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  #2461885 15-Apr-2020 13:42
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dejadeadnz:

 

National's animating value on how to respond to this crisis: Money! Money! Money!

 

Yawn.

 

 

Simon Bridges provides a valuable service. If he suggest this you go with the opposite because the opposite will invariably be correct. The man has an incredible ability at ineptitude  to the level of Donald Trump and that scares the hell out of me. History does not treat well leaders that bring nations 

 

through bad times eg Winston Churchill and it is quite likely that Jacinda Ardern will suffer a similar fate leaving Simon Bridges the PM a thought that scares me far more the Covid-19.





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  #2462076 15-Apr-2020 17:25
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Press release:

 

 

The Prime Minister, Government ministers and public service chief executives will take a pay cut of 20 per cent over the next six months, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern announced today.

 

“It is the right thing to do, and I acknowledge chief executives for volunteering to take the pay cut alongside us,” Jacinda Ardern said.

 

“I feel acutely the struggle many New Zealanders are facing and so too do the people I work with.

 

“While this cut in itself won’t shift the Government’s overall fiscal position it is an acknowledgement that every person and organisation has a part to play as we unite to stamp out Covid-19 and save lives.

 

“It stands alongside many actions taken by all of us – Government, private sector, citizens, to tackle the health and economic challenges of Covid-19 including:

 

  • The more than $23 billion economic package, including the wage subsidy that has paid out over $9 billion to 1.5 million New Zealanders
  • Neighbours looking out for one another
  • Rent freezes and landlords supporting tenants
  • Boosting the winter energy payment and benefits
  • New Zealanders staying home to save lives
  • The Student Army delivering groceries to over 65s
  • The Ministry of Health officials in charge of mandatory quarantine, for which I’ve received a message about their professionalism and exceptional work

“For us it’s about showing leadership,” Jacinda Ardern said.

 

“This isn’t about pay cuts at the front line. We don’t want people on low and middle incomes to bear the brunt,” Minister for State Services Chris Hipkins said.

 

“They make up a huge part of our essential workforce. We need to sustain public sector jobs and ensure services continue to be delivered.

 

“The decision we’ve made is an in-principle one. We will now work through the mechanism to make it happen,” Chris Hipkins said.

 

Decisions taken today mean pay cuts for chief executives are likely to save $1.6 million, and an example of ministers’ cuts are in the table below.

 

 





 

 

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