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  #2467643 22-Apr-2020 10:25
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@networkn, @Technofreak moved your last two messages to this thread as they are more related to covid-19 response than the coalition government.





 

 

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  #2467645 22-Apr-2020 10:31
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Sorry, I didn't know this thread existed.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #2467661 22-Apr-2020 10:58
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freitasm:

 

@networkn, @Technofreak moved your last two messages to this thread as they are more related to covid-19 response than the coalition government.

 

 

Ahh, I was wondering what had happened. No Problem. I had a copy I was about to re-post in the other thread. No need to bother. :)





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  #2467670 22-Apr-2020 11:06
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Assuming the 3800 breaches are all individual people and not cases, its 0.079% of the population, over 4 weeks.

 

There have been several non-scientific opinion polls over the last week or two with all showing 60-65% support for extending Level 4 lockdown.

 

I think you are overstating it a little bit.


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  #2467676 22-Apr-2020 11:09
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dejadeadnz:

 

Nor is it true that it's entirely unreasonable to expect people to model for consequences of having no business to run or no cashflow for, say 4 - 6 weeks. If the event of a loss of premises for a small business that nonetheless can only be run in certain areas due to zoning laws, it's not necessarily inconceivable that such a business cannot restart any time soon. 

 

 

Have you ever started and run your own business? It would seem not.

 

Businesses can insure against the loss of premises and other similar business disasters. There is no insurance for a pandemic. For many small businesses to have 4 to 6 weeks of cash flow up their sleeve is pie in the sky thinking.





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  #2467760 22-Apr-2020 13:07
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Technofreak:

 

Businesses can insure against the loss of premises and other similar business disasters. There is no insurance for a pandemic. For many small businesses to have 4 to 6 weeks of cash flow up their sleeve is pie in the sky thinking.

 

 

Gee I've only litigated against insurance companies err  more times than you ever have or will. You're, as per usual, lurching from "is" to "ought". A lot of businesses have no cash flow buffer -- this doesn't make it socially, morally and legally acceptable.

 

Also, you will find that anyone hoping that business interruption insurance will immediately come to your rescue following loss of premises might stand to be disappointed. All insurance policies typically come with requirements to mitigate your loss -- if you can't show any contingency plan to shift operations or where you are denied resource consent to operate in new premises, get ready for arguments with an insurance company. The point is and remains this: to simply expect to not have to have some skin in the game and being able to cry out for everyone else to socialise one's losses, whilst expecting to personalise all gains to the maximum extent, is sheer lunacy.

 

Welcome to capitalism.

 

 


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  #2467779 22-Apr-2020 13:18
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And @Technofreak:

 

I've actually run my own business and have been a contractor. But keep assuming away. Much more importantly, however, it doesn't matter.

 

As I comprehensively showed you in another instance, the notion that only people who have done the exact same thing as another group of people have any standing to comment on their beliefs and conduct is stupid for the reason that (assuming for the moment that small business owners can just be reduced into some kind of amorphous and singular group - they actually can't) inherent in a lot of SBOs' assumptions and calls upon the public purse are philosophical, economic and other arguments. Everyone else has an equal stake in this. It's also highly stupid and problematic to assume that all small business owners are in the same boat -- some are in cashflow dependent businesses and some aren't.

 

My sincere suggestion would be for you to engage in some deeper thinking and elevate your level of discourse a wee bit. Punchy but ultimately facile one-liners are easily obtainable.

 

Edit: One final point on cashflow -- I can tell you from actual experience of representing SBOs with no cashflow and desperately reliant on insurance payouts just to stay alive that insurers smell this from a mile away. I've seen insurers lowball people with offers that have almost no connection with the insurance contract because they know the insured have no choice but to accept. Sure, you can try make a complaint to the IFSO but it's not much help when you're facing a statutory demand from a supplier that needs to be resolved long before the office of the IFSO will read your complaint. So again people who insist on just skating on thin ice in operating their business are taking chances. You and I disagree on the social and moral implications of this (I put it plainly that you are in no position to debate on the legal implications). That's fine.

 

 

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #2467787 22-Apr-2020 13:33
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Technofreak:

 

dejadeadnz:

 

Nor is it true that it's entirely unreasonable to expect people to model for consequences of having no business to run or no cashflow for, say 4 - 6 weeks. If the event of a loss of premises for a small business that nonetheless can only be run in certain areas due to zoning laws, it's not necessarily inconceivable that such a business cannot restart any time soon. 

 

 

Have you ever started and run your own business? It would seem not.

 

Businesses can insure against the loss of premises and other similar business disasters. There is no insurance for a pandemic. For many small businesses to have 4 to 6 weeks of cash flow up their sleeve is pie in the sky thinking.

 

 

Wow, my personal view is any small business that is running on the line so much that they have insufficient cash flow to cover costs for 4-6 weeks how do they survive over the Christmas break or have to pay staff to take a holiday or if you are contracting and you are moving between contracts? When I was looking to start up a business an absolute minimum was 3 months, but looking towards 6 months as a sensible baseline.

 

My employer (30-40 staff) was seriously looking at business continuity insurance when things started looking iffy in early March. There were options from the insurer available that would cover us during the pandemic but they decided against it as an IT company has a number of government and larger business clients who have kept on going, so I dispute your assumption there is no insurance for business continuity that could cover pandemic, it is just that it wasn't cheap.

 

Our workload has increased by at least 50% since just around lock down.





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  #2467792 22-Apr-2020 13:37
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dejadeadnz:

 

Gee I've only litigated against insurance companies err  more times than you ever have or will. You're, as per usual, lurching from "is" to "ought". A lot of businesses have no cash flow buffer -- this doesn't make it socially, morally and legally acceptable.

 

 

Show me where I said it was acceptable. I was pointing out the difference between your holier than thou standards and reality.





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  #2467813 22-Apr-2020 13:47
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dejadeadnz:

 

My sincere suggestion would be for you to engage in some deeper thinking and elevate your level of discourse a wee bit. Punchy but ultimately facile one-liners are easily obtainable.

 

 

Why do you have to be so condescending? You can never seem to refrain from attempting to show how much cleverer you are. You are easily the poster with the most unpleasant attitude on this forum.

 

There hardly ever seems to be an acceptance from you that there may be another valid point of view or some middle ground.

 

 





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  #2467818 22-Apr-2020 13:51
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Even a business with decent cash in the buffer is facing a pretty tough time. It's unlikely revenues for businesses are going to be normal in most cases, for quite some time, and margins are likely to be under pressure as companies who are suffering, look to reduce overheads.

 

Most businesses can factor in Xmas, because it's planned and they know about it well in advance, they budget for it as well. But 2 x 6 week periods in a single year is a completely different kettle of fish. Also worth noting, we aren't talking 6 weeks, but rather 8 weeks. Logically, this level 3 lockdown will be extended, as at the end of it, we will only know what the effect of level 4 has been. To know what the effect of L3 is, is going to take 3-4 weeks.

 

Many businesses in NZ are good companies who employ people and make a reasonable living themselves, though probably not hundreds of thousands of dollars in profits, who will go to the wall over this. This doesn't necessarily in my mind make them not worth having around, or badly run.

 

 

 

Edited to change 4 weeks to 8 weeks as a typo.


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  #2467860 22-Apr-2020 13:54
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BarTender:

 

Wow, my personal view is any small business that is running on the line so much that they have insufficient cash flow to cover costs for 4-6 weeks how do they survive over the Christmas break or have to pay staff to take a holiday or if you are contracting and you are moving between contracts? When I was looking to start up a business an absolute minimum was 3 months, but looking towards 6 months as a sensible baseline.

 

My employer (30-40 staff) was seriously looking at business continuity insurance when things started looking iffy in early March. There were options from the insurer available that would cover us during the pandemic but they decided against it as an IT company has a number of government and larger business clients who have kept on going, so I dispute your assumption there is no insurance for business continuity that could cover pandemic, it is just that it wasn't cheap.

 

Our workload has increased by at least 50% since just around lock down.

 

 

A lot of these small business don't close over the Christmas break. That said those sorts of closures are planned for.

 

I agree with your idea of having 3 to 6 months up your sleeve. The reality is, that is a luxury many small business don't have.

 

I'm not sure I'd call you employer a small business in the sense I was thinking of. I'm thinking of those business employing around 5 people including the working owners.

 

I stand corrected about the availability of pandemic insurance, however the cost benefit of it seems marginal at best.





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  #2467864 22-Apr-2020 13:57
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Technofreak:

 

Show me where I said it was acceptable. I was pointing out the difference between your holier than thou standards and reality.

 

 

What you just keep evading is that you continue to make out that reality (assuming again for the moment it is indeed the reality) of many businesses not being able to survive without cashflow for 4 to 6 weeks is conclusive of the debate. GV27 was mocking Deborah Russell for asking the legitimate questions and I contend that mocking was unwarranted. If you actually genuinely believe that this situation is (or to be charitable, might be) socially and morally unacceptable, it's difficult to see what you are adding by just continuing to point out the obvious.

 

And if you do indeed agree that it isn't or might not be acceptable, then it's clearly not holier than thou to be concerned about it. Can you please decide what point you are trying to make here? It's hard to take someone seriously when they can't stay consistent even within a few lines.


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  #2467870 22-Apr-2020 14:01
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Hmmm, where's the "Ignore" button





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  #2467887 22-Apr-2020 14:16
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Technofreak:

 

Hmmm, where's the "Ignore" button

 

 

So you are now outright engaging in pure ad hominems? Great - thanks for the confirmation.


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