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2081 posts

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  #2477603 6-May-2020 09:50
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Yea NZ First has a lock on the whole NZ-brand of MAGA. 

 

That position has been filled. 


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#2477616 6-May-2020 10:02
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dejadeadnz:

 

networkn:

 

I'd be more worried about the Government repeatedly telling NZ that there are plenty of Flu Vaccines when this isn't true, saying there was enough PPE when there wasn't, and promising they would provide a financial package for GP's to help them with the additional costs related to C19, to then renege on it, leaving GP practices out of pocket.

 

 

It's time highly paid people like GPs, lawyers, and the like stopped whining for government help and/or taking the wage subsidy. On any objective scale, there are people way needier than them. 

 

 

 

 

Haha, so the Government can expect that the added costs to GP's of assisting NZ with medical assistance and the direct costs related to C19, should be bourne by them? Even if this is reasonable, which I don't think any reasonable person would believe, why should it be acceptable for the Government to say they will assist, and then pull the pin with zero warning? Why should GP's be required to buy their own PPE and rent temporary buildings, and other required additional items at their own cost for the sole purpose of dealing with C19?

 

What is the threshold in your view for "highly paid people" who aren't allowed to whine in your view? Anyone earning more than what amount roughly?


 
 
 
 


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  #2477648 6-May-2020 10:33
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You spend quite a lot of time telling people what European car you have and this and that, so I doubt you and your GP wife are poor. I also have a wife who's a doctor and am also in a pretty sweet job. I'd wager that both you and your wife (plus I and mine) would earn incomes that are, on any objective view, extremely high by NZ standards and make for a very comfortable living. Life isn't just about what you're entitled to and what you can grab. Everyone is going through a degree of pain and if the government chooses to reprioritise its resources to cover needier people, it has my support.

 

Who exactly "deserves" any of the costs that almost everyone has had to bear as a result of this crisis? Nobody. Relative to the likely resources available to people like us, our "pain" is nothing compared to most other people. Hence, my suggestion to you is that it's time for higher income people to get over themselves and leave some of the scarce resources to more needy people. I think this is entirely reasonable and it's arrogant and presumptuous of you to believe that no reasonable person can believe that certain sectors/segments of NZ society should be expected to bear a higher cost. I'd wager we (my wife and I) are at least as intelligent as you, so don't give us some crap that we are somehow unreasonable because we take a position that's not convenient for your personal finances.

 

Edit: clarified what "we" meant in one instance.

 

 


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  #2477724 6-May-2020 12:22
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Rikkitic:

 

I can't speak to the third point but are you suggesting the first two were intentional lying, or administrative incompetence, or maybe just miscommunication?

 

 

 

 

Especially as it relates to the Flu Vaccines, intentional dishonesty. You could say it was miscommunication if someone stands on stage 1 day and says it, but by the following day, or 2 days even, the information should have been corrected.

 

Last year, there were Flu Vaccine shortages. At the time, the healthcare community warned the MOH and the Government directly, changes needed to be made. They were warned more would be required this year.

 

 


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  #2477765 6-May-2020 12:51
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dejadeadnz:

 

You spend quite a lot of time telling people what European car you have and this and that, so I doubt you and your GP wife are poor. I also have a wife who's a doctor and am also in a pretty sweet job. I'd wager that both you and your wife (plus I and mine) would earn incomes that are, on any objective view, extremely high by NZ standards and make for a very comfortable living. Life isn't just about what you're entitled to and what you can grab. Everyone is going through a degree of pain and if the government chooses to reprioritise its resources to cover needier people, it has my support.

 

Who exactly "deserves" any of the costs that almost everyone has had to bear as a result of this crisis? Nobody. Relative to the likely resources available to people like us, our "pain" is nothing compared to most other people. Hence, my suggestion to you is that it's time for higher income people to get over themselves and leave some of the scarce resources to more needy people. I think this is entirely reasonable and it's arrogant and presumptuous of you to believe that no reasonable person can believe that certain sectors/segments of NZ society should be expected to bear a higher cost. I'd wager we (my wife and I) are at least as intelligent as you, so don't give us some crap that we are somehow unreasonable because we take a position that's not convenient for your personal finances.

 

Edit: clarified what "we" meant in one instance.

 

 

 

 

So, here we go again, with you making personal comments and attacks instead of just discussing the issues. You really need to get a grip and get over yourself.

 

My commentary was not toward MY situation but to issues in general. I find it no less acceptable that a private business, required by the Government to assist in the response to C19, would be required to wear direct costs to doing so, than I would if any other health professional (highly paid, or not) was required to purchase thier own PPE or rent a portacom in order to safely treat patients. I am not, as you seem to be inferring, suggesting, that the Government help GP's (or in fact anyone) profiteer from this situation, and the inference that they might be doing so, shows a stunning lack of awareness of the situation in general.

 

You should really follow some of your oft handed out advice.

 

For the record, GP's being reimbursed for the direct out of pocket expenses related to Covid specific activities they undertake, would have no direct impact on my household.

 

Edits made to de-personalize my reply and clarify a point.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  #2477808 6-May-2020 13:27
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networkn:

 

So, here we go again, with you making personal comments and attacks instead of just discussing the issues. You really need to get a grip and get over yourself.

 

My commentary was not toward MY situation but to issues in general. I find it no less acceptable that a private business, required by the Government to assist in the response to C19, would be required to wear direct costs to doing so, than I would if your wife (or any other medical professional), who by your own admission is a highly paid professional, was required to purchase her own PPE or rent a portacom in order to safely treat patients. I am not, as you seem to be inferring, suggesting, that the Government help GP's (or in fact anyone) profiteer from this situation, and the inference that they might be doing so, shows a stunning lack of awareness of the situation in general.

 

You should really follow some of your oft handed out advice.

 

 

Hypocrisy much??

 

No one was "required" to assist - at least not in the sense that there was some kind of bill of attainder (Google it if you don't know what this means) or specifically irrational/unreasonable request by the government targeted at any industry. Your wife could have refused to operate the clinic. Now, of course, you're going to throw the emotive "Oh but the patients will suffer!" line back at me. And that of course is true. But this illustrates the utter falsity of the notion that the government particularly targeted GPs/medical practices with unreasonable costs. It's obvious to any mature adult that society has incurred at large a huge cost due to COVID-19 itself.

 

As I've explained in the COVID-19 thread gazillions of times, businesses as Person Conducting Business or Undertaking (PCBU) under the HSWA has obligations to keep their principals, the public and employees safe. So yes if you are a business owner, it is entirely reasonable that in order to operate your business which requires close personal contact with patients and others against the background of a pandemic, that you purchase additional HS gear to do so and to incur additional expenses to keep people safe. This is the cost of doing business - no one should reasonably expect to just be able to profit from a business without ever wearing some risks.

 

I work for a lifeline utility. Our crews went out to do essential works during level 4 and they wore as much PPE as they humanly could, balancing the need for them to be protected and also their ability to do the essential works. The contractors also had to work slower and we have incurred additional costs and this has also hit our bottomline. These things are continuing. But we, like just about every other business, have accepted this HSWA duty and cost. So remind me what's so special about doctors' cases again?

 

I did not accuse doctors of trying to profiteer. My words explicitly exclude that possibility, as the numerous references to doctors as highly paid professionals being better placed to wear the "costs" (i.e. incurred expenses) of this crisis, would have made clear to anyone with an elementary grasp of English. So my question to you is this: are you wishing to exclude yourself from this group or did you just want to go on a rave?


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  #2477901 6-May-2020 15:10
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This is off topic, unpleasant and unnecessary. If the two of you have to feud, can you not take it to private mail? 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 


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  #2477907 6-May-2020 15:17
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I was simply replying to networkn's rather extraordinary assertion that no reasonable person (it's a pretty high threshold and frankly insulting assertion) could be expected to accept the government's apparent position that relatively highly paid GPs be expected to wear a higher proportion of costs of this crisis, which just about every person is wearing. That's pretty on-topic.

 

And then I got accused of asserting that doctors were profiteering. You feel free to take that up with networkn.

 

 


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  #2477917 6-May-2020 15:21
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Please see my new feuds thread.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #2478152 6-May-2020 20:40
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dejadeadnz:

 

I was simply replying to networkn's rather extraordinary assertion that no reasonable person (it's a pretty high threshold and frankly insulting assertion) could be expected to accept the government's apparent position that relatively highly paid GPs be expected to wear a higher proportion of costs of this crisis, which just about every person is wearing. That's pretty on-topic.

 

And then I got accused of asserting that doctors were profiteering. You feel free to take that up with networkn.

 

 

 

 

I think you missed the point. Apparently the government told GPs they would be reimbursed for some expenses. As I understand it based on this infornation some GPs hired extra space to cater for some of the Covid 19 requirements. Then the government reneged on the deal. I don't really care how much a GP earns, but telling someone they can expect financial support and that person then incurrng expenses based on that promisse and then not giving the promised support is not right. 

 

I'm not sure GP's are as well off as you might think especially when you consider their qualifications. GP consultations in New Zealand, as you are probably aware, are generaly subsidised by the government. In return for getting a subsidy for their patients the government puts a limt on what that GP an charge per consultation. Basically the government regulates how much a GP earns. GPs are not like a lawyer who is free to charge whatever he or she likes. 





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  #2478253 6-May-2020 22:16
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Technofreak:

 

I think you missed the point. Apparently the government told GPs they would be reimbursed for some expenses. As I understand it based on this infornation some GPs hired extra space to cater for some of the Covid 19 requirements. Then the government reneged on the deal. I don't really care how much a GP earns, but telling someone they can expect financial support and that person then incurrng expenses based on that promisse and then not giving the promised support is not right. 

 

 

Then these people can feel free to take this matter up at the High Court, if this is true. I would think it's pretty open and shut case under the doctrine of legitimate expectations - the mere fact that the professional body of the GPs have done no such thing probably tells anyone informed all there is to know.

 

Again, so what if GPs aren't as wealthy as X, Y and Z? For example, my wife will never earn anywhere near as much as an emergency medicine specialist compared with your average private-practicing ophthalmologist/surgeon/insert whatever else. On no reasonable/objective account would she be considered poor or badly off. Sometimes people just need to stop acting like they are hard done by. The point is when resources are scarce, they will inevitably have to be prioritised.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  #2478328 6-May-2020 23:17
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dejadeadnz:

 

Technofreak:

 

I think you missed the point. Apparently the government told GPs they would be reimbursed for some expenses. As I understand it based on this infornation some GPs hired extra space to cater for some of the Covid 19 requirements. Then the government reneged on the deal. I don't really care how much a GP earns, but telling someone they can expect financial support and that person then incurrng expenses based on that promisse and then not giving the promised support is not right. 

 

 

Then these people can feel free to take this matter up at the High Court, if this is true. I would think it's pretty open and shut case under the doctrine of legitimate expectations - the mere fact that the professional body of the GPs have done no such thing probably tells anyone informed all there is to know.

 

Again, so what if GPs aren't as wealthy as X, Y and Z? For example, my wife will never earn anywhere near as much as an emergency medicine specialist compared with your average private-practicing ophthalmologist/surgeon/insert whatever else. On no reasonable/objective account would she be considered poor or badly off. Sometimes people just need to stop acting like they are hard done by. The point is when resources are scarce, they will inevitably have to be prioritised.

 

 

Your wife more than likely earns more than most GPs without the commercial risk faced by someone in private practice. I bet she hasn't had her income slashed like some GPs and a significant portion of the population have.

 

Has your household income been slashed as a result of Covid 19?

 

Based on what you posted earlier about your job situation and your wife's job situation I don't know that you really have the right to tell people to stop acting like they are hard done by unless you know all the details of their situation. 

 

 





Sony Xperia X running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS 
Samsung Galaxy Tab S3
Nokia N1
Dell Inspiron 14z i5


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  #2478338 6-May-2020 23:55
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No we haven't lost any income and, as explained about gazillion times, we are absolutely aware of how lucky we are. Both of us have happily given away substantial sums per annum to the less fortunate for a number of years (I am deliberately vague on the details as I don't want to turn this into a virtual peeing contest). And I like how you hit on commercial risk: by operating a business, people (including GPs) have the opportunity to leverage the labour of other people, including employed GPs, for gains that go beyond typical drawings/salary of the principal. Yes, sometimes people who operate businesses don't win out during hard times and that's not new.

 

Furthermore, I will be sure to ask seek Your Highneess' permission before having the temerity of having an opinion on anything again, @Technofreak. For my sins, I shall repent for 30 minutes. I currently spend 6 hours a week of my own time volunteering to provide legal advice to the truly indigent and have done this and other volunteer work of this nature for over 9 years, so I think I have at least a semi-decent idea of what being disadvantaged looks like. Here's my 20c: in an unprecedented crisis, it's time for the high income earners (including people like me) to get some perspective and not expect a slice of the assistance pie when there is so much more unmet needs out there. 

 

If that offends you, here's my response: blah.

 

 

 

 


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  #2478352 7-May-2020 03:46
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networkn:

 

My commentary was not toward MY situation but to issues in general. I find it no less acceptable that a private business, required by the Government to assist ...

 

 

Did you apply for the wage subsidy for your business?


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  #2478420 7-May-2020 08:29
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I know this is the politics forum and the rules are a little looser, but I still don’t think ad hominem attacks are appropriate on Geekzone. In fact they may even be against the FUGs.

 

It is quite likely a sign that everyone has been locked up a bit long. But perhaps we all need to take a step back and CTFD.





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