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  #2484473 15-May-2020 14:41
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freitasm:

Handle9:


This is another interesting opinion on the legality of the level 3/4 provisions. It comes down more on the government side than some others I've read



Quote from the article: "When basic liberties are involved, officials and courts should err on the side of preserving those liberties. But they must also take heed of the purpose of the statute and the community the law protects."


At the end of the day five million New Zealanders did not have to go through the disease and death experiences other countries had to endure. So I am ok with that.


It's all fine shouting now but had the government acted differently and we had deaths on a UK scale I'd like to think these same people would be shouting the opposite.


There's no way to making everyone happy.


Then there's the rabid cadre of American racists shouting "New Zealand is running a Communist state with Stasi-like powers for Police" and - surprise! - New Zealanders that repeat this kind of crap on social networks because they are easily influenced idiots.



The issue, in this case isn't "what" the issue is "how". The government did what was necessary to protect public health.

The government should always act within their powers. They have the power to enact legislation very quickly, as they did with the level 2 legislation.

If the government acts outside the law by mistake that isn't acceptable but should be fixed as quickly possible. If the government knowingly acts outside the law then that is incredibly problematic.

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  #2484474 15-May-2020 14:46
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Fred99:

I'll be accused of whataboutism for this, so preemptively defend myself by agreeing that there's an element of that - for sure - and some of the players are still there on different sides of the house.  I'm guilty.


OTOH maybe some reflection on the response to the last large scale disaster in NZ when a national disaster recovery plan was found to be lacking is appropriate.  When government actions and interpretation of the inadequate legislation (EQC Act) were found to be not legal by the High Court - did government accept those findings, change what they were doing, and move on?
How did damage claimants fare in general when making OIA requests of government departments (ie EQC) and their agents (Fletcher EQR)?


I had a quick look at Parliament TV the other day - tuned in when Nick Smith was talking about "transparency" and "accountability".   Gerry Brownlee walked in front of the camera on the way to seating himself.  I had to turn the TV off.


The abuse of the OIA has been appalling under the last two governments.

It should be noted that only one of those governments promised to be the most open and transparent ever.

 
 
 
 


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  #2485490 18-May-2020 10:54
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Fred99:

 

Getting working class people to vote against themselves and in favour of rule by new class of nobles has been a phenomenal success (and a social disaster).

 

 

I'm not sure there are many places left for working class people to go.

 

Something I've noticed in the last few years is an increasing number of wealthy people on the left of politics too (not just in NZ but overseas as well). 

 

While this isn't by any means universal, the number of genuinely working class people representing working class people seem to be diminishing.  That is a real shame.





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  #2485503 18-May-2020 11:19
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MikeAqua:

 

Fred99:

 

Getting working class people to vote against themselves and in favour of rule by new class of nobles has been a phenomenal success (and a social disaster).

 

 

I'm not sure there are many places left for working class people to go.

 

 

I am not sure you caught the gist of the comment. Fred99 is making the point that some of the people who need most help vote for populist politicians who clearly have no interest in helping the needy - see Donald Trump in the USA and Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil. In that content the "working class people" are voting against their best interest, falling for the spell cast by liars and crooks.

 

This is nothing to do with politicians who make up one specific side of the spectrum being actual working class or not.

 

Here's is an example of "working class" that ended up being worst than the right side of the spectrum: Luiz Inácio "Lula" da Silva. He started working for VW, joined the union turned into politics and climbed all the way to the Presidency - just to be revealed at the same level of corruption if not worst than politicians on the exact opposite side of the aisle. 





 

 

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  #2485511 18-May-2020 11:36
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MikeAqua:

 

Fred99:

 

Getting working class people to vote against themselves and in favour of rule by new class of nobles has been a phenomenal success (and a social disaster).

 

 

I'm not sure there are many places left for working class people to go.

 

Something I've noticed in the last few years is an increasing number of wealthy people on the left of politics too (not just in NZ but overseas as well). 

 

While this isn't by any means universal, the number of genuinely working class people representing working class people seem to be diminishing.  That is a real shame.

 

 

Maybe - it really depends on definition of working class - so how I used it is probably very 19th century if you're going to define it by doing "manual / industrial" work.  These days you're probably in the same boat, even if well educated (with a big student loan), working a white collar job with zero job security, unable to afford to buy a place to live - or "owning" a bit of equity in a house you'll possibly never really own.

 

 


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  #2485561 18-May-2020 12:55
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Fred99:

 

Maybe - it really depends on definition of working class - so how I used it is probably very 19th century if you're going to define it by doing "manual / industrial" work.  These days you're probably in the same boat, even if well educated (with a big student loan), working a white collar job with zero job security, unable to afford to buy a place to live - or "owning" a bit of equity in a house you'll possibly never really own.

 

 

Zero job security, a fraction of the redundancy protection your parents had and now paying 300% more in housing costs, and your commute takes three times as long even though you have a far more reliable and cheaper, faster car.

 

But you can get a 75" TV for under $2K! That's something...right? 

 

I don't think many people realise how precarious their own position is until there's no one worse off they can look down on. 


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  #2485566 18-May-2020 13:08
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GV27:

 

But you can get a 75" TV for under $2K!

 

 

 

 

Go on ...





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  #2485576 18-May-2020 13:48
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freitasm:

 

I am not sure you caught the gist of the comment. Fred99 is making the point that some of the people who need most help vote for populist politicians who clearly have no interest in helping the needy - see Donald Trump in the USA and Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil. In that content the "working class people" are voting against their best interest, falling for the spell cast by liars and crooks.

 

 

I got it.  My point is where are working class voters supposed to turn to?  The left is increasingly being infiltrated being taken over by people who are wealthy and/or have never had a blue-collar job.  The rise of the so-called 'Brahmin Left'. 

 

The infiltration of the left by activists for various causes seems to be leaving behind a lot of the 'blue-collar' workers who used to be the mainstay of the left.  The reasons people in those circumstances would vote for someone like Trump or a comparable candidate in another country are complex.  However, a sense of economic and social abandonment is a part of the story.

 

 

 

 

 

 





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  #2485650 18-May-2020 14:44
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All this talk of 'right' and 'left' is itself somewhat a symptom of the times. Real people and real policies are dramatically more complicated than a simple right vs. left. For example, I myself would call myself a libertarian in respect of personal rights: as far as I am concerned the government has no right to legislate or even know about whatever the hell you want to do in the privacy of your own home or with any other consenting adults. As long as you're not hurting anyone else, then whatever floats your boat is fine by me. Which is not to say that I won't think you're an idiot if "what I want to do with my life" is "get high all the time" but the point is that it's your life, not mine.

 

But on the other hand when it comes to corporations I believe in a robust regulatory framework because that is the only way to ensure that they won't screw over anyone or anything they're allowed to in order to maximise their profits.

 

So what am I? A right-winger for being libertarian? Or a left-winger for wanting the government to control businesses?

 

This left wing/right wing polarisation is more damaging in the long run than any one party's policies are in the short term.





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  #2485762 18-May-2020 16:49
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SaltyNZ:

 

All this talk of 'right' and 'left' is itself somewhat a symptom of the times. .....

 

This left wing/right wing polarisation is more damaging in the long run than any one party's policies are in the short term.

 

 

Nothing new about the terminology.  I do agree it's too simple to encapsulate people's individual views.  

 

For parties though, most are clearly identifiable as left or right: Labour LOC, National ROC, ACT way right.  Greens way left.  NZ First ... go figure.

 

Like many things left-right has become a battle ground on social media.  Other examples include vaccinate-don't, fluoridate-don't, Yay5G-Boo5G, Globalise-Don't ... the list goes on.





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  #2485820 18-May-2020 19:12
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SaltyNZ:

 

All this talk of 'right' and 'left' is itself somewhat a symptom of the times. Real people and real policies are dramatically more complicated than a simple right vs. left. For example, I myself would call myself a libertarian in respect of personal rights: as far as I am concerned the government has no right to legislate or even know about whatever the hell you want to do in the privacy of your own home or with any other consenting adults. As long as you're not hurting anyone else, then whatever floats your boat is fine by me. Which is not to say that I won't think you're an idiot if "what I want to do with my life" is "get high all the time" but the point is that it's your life, not mine.

 

But on the other hand when it comes to corporations I believe in a robust regulatory framework because that is the only way to ensure that they won't screw over anyone or anything they're allowed to in order to maximise their profits.

 

So what am I? A right-winger for being libertarian? Or a left-winger for wanting the government to control businesses?

 

This left wing/right wing polarisation is more damaging in the long run than any one party's policies are in the short term.

 

 

Polarisation isn't a new thing. There have been people who hate unions and classical Labour politics since there have been unions. Similarly there have been people who feel that the owners of capital don't make a fair contribution since time immemorial 

 

The difference in the current times is social media is mobilising the truely lunatic on both sides of the spectrum. The invasion of the gun nuts and abortion loonies on the right and the identity warriors on the left has made the culture wars more significant in left/right politics than the traditional economic battlefield.

 

The left also become economically much more like the right in the 80s and 90s. The older tax and spend policies have largely disappeared. Traditionally left wing governments raised income taxes to pay for spending. The Lange, Clark and Ardern governments haven't gone in that direction, just as the Key government didn't dismantle middle class welfare as previous right wing governments may have.

 

I suspect politics will change for a while because of this situation. The drive for economic prosperity will be much more of a focus when large numbers of people are out of work.


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  #2485839 18-May-2020 19:53
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Handle9:

 

The left also become economically much more like the right in the 80s and 90s. The older tax and spend policies have largely disappeared. Traditionally left wing governments raised income taxes to pay for spending. The Lange, Clark and Ardern governments haven't gone in that direction, just as the Key government didn't dismantle middle class welfare as previous right wing governments may have.

 

I suspect politics will change for a while because of this situation. The drive for economic prosperity will be much more of a focus when large numbers of people are out of work.

 

 

Well I'm not disagreeing that's what happened, but the fundamental mistruth behind it and to sell it to the masses was "trickle-down" economics.  It did not work - will never work - and many "establishment" economists now see that as fact. It was and will always be an abject failure. 

 

The GFC drove the knife in deeper - this "whatdowecallit" financial crisis is looking worse unless something changes.


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  #2485843 18-May-2020 20:08
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MikeAqua:

 

Like many things left-right has become a battle ground on social media.  Other examples include vaccinate-don't, fluoridate-don't, Yay5G-Boo5G, Globalise-Don't ... the list goes on.

 

 

But I don't see any of those issues being divided on "left:right" (political) lines.

 

The extreme right hates globalisation - so does the extreme left.  Based on observation of nutters I apparently know on my facebook feed, there's no correlation whatsoever between political affiliation and issues like fluoride, 5G, whether Bill Gates is the Antichrist, whatever.

 

 


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  #2485867 18-May-2020 20:30
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MikeAqua:

 

Nothing new about the terminology.  I do agree it's too simple to encapsulate people's individual views.  

 

 

 

 

Oh, I know the words have been around forever. It's just that more and more lately, people identify themselves super-strongly as one of the other and have no concept of nuance. If you disagree with someone, you must be [opposite of their team]. I'm not either. I've voted for ACT and the Green Party. David Seymour can be a bit of a dick, but on the other hand he often has a point. We're not doing enough to keep the planet healthy, but I wish the Greens could dial back the social justice a little and be willing to work with National to actually do something about it.

 

Ugh... people just aren't using their heads.





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  #2485881 18-May-2020 20:46
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SaltyNZ:

 

I wish the Greens could dial back the social justice a little and be willing to work with National to actually do something about it.

 

Ugh... people just aren't using their heads.

 

 

This is actually hilarious - that somebody should actually put it in words that "the barrier" between the Nats and the Greens "working together" is entirely the fault of the Greens.

 

It's a very poor starting point for negotiation.  So it won't happen.

 

 

 

 


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