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2050 posts

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  #2479487 8-May-2020 20:18
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Retrospective Law is a bad thing and undermines confidence in Govt decision-making. Society at large does not have the same ability (I can't just tell the IRD I screwed up a tax return, but hey, I've decided it's no biggie) to walk away from their errors in life. Previous examples, such as legalising election over-spending, were extremely cynical abuses of power. In that particular case, they were at least 'self-serving' - in as much as they were effectively 'administrative' issues that would have warranted SFO attention, but only just. 

 

Retrospectively legalising a lockdown of citizens in their homes that vapourised billions of dollars from the economy is next level. Sure, it's not retrospectively legalising ethnic cleansing, but if the state can walk past the law this far without fear of consequence, what reason do they still have to be accountable to the societies that they are elected by to represent them?


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  #2479491 8-May-2020 20:27
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I should also say other instances where laws have been passed retrospectively are things like police oaths being incorrect (and therefore police work done by said cops when entering the force being legally questionable). That's low level administrative messy stuff that a retrospective law can easily fix. 

 

A nation-wide stay-at-home order that decimates the economy that you might not have been allowed to make in the first place is not an administrative oversight.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #2479492 8-May-2020 20:33
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Handle9: Please don't make things up.

 

There was broad cross party support for the start of the lockdown.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120494499/coronavirus-national-party-leader-simon-bridges-suspends-campaign-calls-for-alert-level-4

 

Bridges has behaved like a dick at various points, particularly the roads roads roads speech. It's also not his job to be cheer leader, he should and must ask the government to justify their actions. Any government has a tendency to over extend and abuse their position if they have unchecked power. After the earthquakes Brownlee was a great example in Christchurch. There is ever sign that similar problems are occurring here and without a functional opposition the government will overstep.

 

Sorry.. but there wasn't. It wasn't until the 19th of March did National get onboard, prior to that it was politics as usual.

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/412000/coronavirus-simon-bridges-criticised-for-politics-as-usual-pot-shots-amid-covid-19-crisis

 

 

 

Government confirming first case 3 March: https://ondemand.parliament.nz/parliament-tv-on-demand/?itemId=211206

 

National response straight afterwards: https://ondemand.parliament.nz/parliament-tv-on-demand/?itemId=211208

 

https://twitter.com/simonjbridges/status/1234966892206383104  He sure seemed worried then

 

All they cared about was the economic impact not saying the country should shutdown.

 

Before that when the government had been warning about Covid.

 

16 March warning about cancellations of large gatherings: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/411825/coronavirus-more-large-events-likely-to-be-cancelled-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern

 

Simon Bridges responses/performances in parliament:

 

10 March: https://ondemand.parliament.nz/parliament-tv-on-demand/?itemId=211403

 

11 March: https://ondemand.parliament.nz/parliament-tv-on-demand/?itemId=211459

 

18 March: https://ondemand.parliament.nz/parliament-tv-on-demand/?itemId=211718

 

All politics as usual.





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  #2479503 8-May-2020 21:00
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Sigh. The level system was announced on the 21st of March. Saying that it wasn't supported is bizarre. Criticising national for publicising an event on the 4th of March when the government was going to allow Pacifica to happen in mid march is also very strange.

National haven't behaved particularly well and Bridges IMO is a clown. The government also appear to have done some fairly dodgy things and deserve to be questioned.

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Ultimate Geek


  #2479510 8-May-2020 21:26
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This is a stupid argument. There is a judicial review on the process - the outcome, whatever it is, will be improved legislation for the future - it is fine to have a review to inform better government. If necessary and in a considered way there will be retrospective legislation to prevent vexatious litigants looking to profit. Bridges is a clumsy oaf looking to last until the election, which will be tough for him but there’s no-one in the Nat’s to take over.

 

It’s pointless and a waste of time to argue on a ‘he-said, she-said’ type of argument.





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  #2479582 9-May-2020 02:46
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GV27:

 

I should also say other instances where laws have been passed retrospectively are things like police oaths being incorrect (and therefore police work done by said cops when entering the force being legally questionable). That's low level administrative messy stuff that a retrospective law can easily fix. 

 

A nation-wide stay-at-home order that decimates the economy that you might not have been allowed to make in the first place is not an administrative oversight.

 

 

 

 

Who would you prefer to decimate instead of the economy?





Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^

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  #2479592 9-May-2020 06:48
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How far off topic does this thread need to get before it is moved to the politics forum? (Where there are already several topics along these lines).





Areas of Geek interest: Home Theatre, HTPC, Android Tablets & Phones, iProducts.

 
 
 
 


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  #2479597 9-May-2020 08:00
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I'm not sure why there appears to be so much venom or indeed even 'sides' in this thread - surely it's not unreasonable to expect a government to both work quickly in the best interests of the people _and_ do so within the law?

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  #2479604 9-May-2020 08:35
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Ge0rge: I'm not sure why there appears to be so much venom or indeed even 'sides' in this thread - surely it's not unreasonable to expect a government to both work quickly in the best interests of the people _and_ do so within the law?

 

I think the venom started outside this thread - in the real world.

 

Bridges is an authoritarian of the type suited to being a police prosecutor.

 

If you saved a bus full of people from going over a cliff by stopping it with a tractor, he'd be prosecuting if the tractor didn't have a current WOF and Reg sticker.

 

Yeah - this thread should be in politics IMO.

 

 


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  #2479609 9-May-2020 08:51
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Handle9: Sigh. The level system was announced on the 21st of March. Saying that it wasn't supported is bizarre. Criticising national for publicising an event on the 4th of March when the government was going to allow Pacifica to happen in mid march is also very strange.

National haven't behaved particularly well and Bridges IMO is a clown. The government also appear to have done some fairly dodgy things and deserve to be questioned.

 

So in the two weeks prior to the alert levels being publicly announced and the government reaching out to National ON THE 4th OF MARCH saying this is an issue facing the whole country and everyone needed to work together!!!

 

 

 

https://vimeo.com/395338398#t=4m20s

 

 

 

I suggest you watch this video at this offset and I suggest @mdooher watch it ... multiple times... then rewind back to the beginning of the interaction and see what questions the National Leader and on that same day other National MPs were asking.

 

Anyone with half a brain was watching what had happened in China, then being reported in Italy and to have ALL of the National front bench behave the way they did for those two weeks is unforgivable in my view.

 

mdooher: I never said the government shouldn't have acted. (I think they should have acted earlier) but if they ignored legal advice and used the police to enforce their edicts where they knew or ought to have known that what they were doing was illegal then they need to be dealt with in such a way as to dissuade them from doing it again.

 

 

 

Do you HONESTLY believe that the government could have moved ANY quicker? 

 

 

 

If you actually look at the timeline it wasn't until two days before the alert levels were due to be announced that National changed it's position and that was the 19th and took the impact of COVID19 seriously rather than playing politics as usual.

 

 

 

Anyone saying that the Government should have moved sooner such as @mdooher is living in a dream world as they would have faced riots in the streets lead on by National and National supporters with the guvvinmint over-reach. That would have been especially important if there hadn't been ANY deaths as then I have no doubt National would have crowed and crowed about the overreach as they only pivoted on the 19th.





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  #2479620 9-May-2020 09:11
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webwat:

 

Who would you prefer to decimate instead of the economy?

 

 

Ah yes, because I'm not pro-allowing the Government to make huge liberty-depriving changes to the way we live without our lives in a way that it doesn't actually have the authority to do and then just wiping the slate clean retrospectively, I must be pro-everyone dying from a virus. 

 

I'm in favour of a controlled and legal lockdown. 

 

I'm not in favour of the state being able to almost totally deprive people of work, freedom of movement and association whether they have that ability or not because they feel they can just effectively pardon themselves afterwards.

 

No part of me not wanting Governments to trivialise basic human rights and the processes that protect means that I want to see everyone dead from Covid19.


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  #2479622 9-May-2020 09:17
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BarTender:

 

Anyone saying that the Government should have moved sooner such as @mdooher is living in a dream world as they would have faced riots in the streets lead on by National and National supporters with the guvvinmint over-reach. 

 

 

The two weeks self-isolation could have implemented earlier. There was clear evidence it was being circulated in other countries, including Australia, where I returned from in late February. The fact they later had to come back and suggest everyone who had returned from overseas in the last two weeks self-isolate in addition to new arrivals strongly suggests they realised this was going to be a problem. The only signs at the airport were aimed at people who had been in China or Northern Italy. 

 

They also moved the deadline for new arrivals (once they actually named one) so more people could get in without self-isolating and the state airline put on more flights so more people could get home. Without isolating. 

 

Then the police weren't following up on those who were meant to be self-isolating. 

 

Most of our cases came from international travel and the response around this was pretty poor. 

 

Sorry, but this 'all government actions are defensible because National are idiots' line is essentially a blank cheque for the Government to make any mistake and not face any scrutiny at all. That's not how accountability works. 

 

 


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  #2479638 9-May-2020 09:45
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GV27: The two weeks self-isolation could have implemented earlier. There was clear evidence it was being circulated in other countries, including Australia, where I returned from in late February. The fact they later had to come back and suggest everyone who had returned from overseas in the last two weeks self-isolate in addition to new arrivals strongly suggests they realised this was going to be a problem. The only signs at the airport were aimed at people who had been in China or Northern Italy. 

 

They also moved the deadline for new arrivals (once they actually named one) so more people could get in without self-isolating and the state airline put on more flights so more people could get home. Without isolating. 

 

Then the police weren't following up on those who were meant to be self-isolating. 

 

Most of our cases came from international travel and the response around this was pretty poor. 

 

Sorry, but this 'all government actions are defensible because National are idiots' line is essentially a blank cheque for the Government to make any mistake and not face any scrutiny at all. That's not how accountability works.

 

So in an alternate universe you exist in.

 

The government calls for complete border closure on the 3rd of March with the first official case and only returning citizens can enter and go into mandatory government run 2 week isolation.

 

Somehow we manage to house the 40k+ people who return since we all know we need to let NZ citizens back into the country, and have them isolated from each other so we don't have a Ruby Princess at Whenuapai or other military bases where we have had to forcibly quarantine everyone.

 

No one dies, country isn't locked down as we don't need to focus on aggressively contact tracing as it is only international arrivals we need to worry about?

 

And National still have a field day at the government overreach while the rest of the world burns around us as they should have done more ?

 

 

 

Do you really thing that would have been palatable where Labour would "Be destroying the economy" by closing our borders.

 

I really need to pull up the decries of destroying the economy during that time before Australia followed NZs approach to close the borders to non-citizens? Remember that NZ moved before Australia.

 

Even the mighty Steve said on the 18th not everyone understood the ramifications of what was about to happen:

 

 

Then

 





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  #2479640 9-May-2020 09:47
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Anyone who says Government could have closed earlier and should have acted quicker is just living in an alternative facts reality.

 

There would have been riots in the streets by crazy right wing nutters, like we are seeing in the US.





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  #2479650 9-May-2020 10:25
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AFAIK SB supported the lockdown. So he supported and was aware of the implications. Should he have been honest and not supported it? That would have been widely unpopular so he seemed to go along for the ride, supporting it, to avoid a political backwash. I also don't recall way back then, of National raising the issue of the lockdown being unlawful. Why is that?  Now that the lockdown has worked, its now a problem. Maybe he thought L4 would not affect businesses but L3 would? /s


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