NZ Election 2020

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#2521304 11-Jul-2020 23:11

Pretty much spot on.

Both are incredibly shallow intellectually. One displays rather pronounced traits of sociopathy/personal ruthlessness; the other one appears to be genuinely a bit kinder. But neither has achieved much of any great substance. Ardern simply shouldn't be given all the credit that she's been receiving for her COVID response. Shutting down in March was the obvious and only sensible thing to do and she did that -- well done but that doesn't deserve endless praise. As soon as things became more complex (e.g. see current situation), the government's response has been increasingly shambolic.

This election will be a fight between the a government with reasonably competent "star turns" but a hopeless bench plus almost zero transformational ideas (Labour/Greens) versus the morally deplorable/senseless ideologues (National/Act), with the ever obnoxious NZF in the mix. The rest of the parties are irrelevant.

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tdgeek

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#2521337 12-Jul-2020 07:41

quickymart:

I never really liked John Key, my impression of him was that he only cared about looking after his mates in big business and not really anyone else, but YMMHV.

Thats right, the point is he was smart enough to avoid what Muller drags himself into

quickymart

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#2521339 12-Jul-2020 08:17

Interesting write up in Stuff about it all this morning.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122082389/dirty-politics-can-national-stop-the-rot

Aaron Gilmore! I had almost forgotten about that guy...which is probably what he wanted.

dejadeadnz

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#2521352 12-Jul-2020 09:03

dejadeadnz:

This election will be a fight between the a government with reasonably competent "star turns" but a hopeless bench plus almost zero transformational ideas (Labour/Greens) versus the morally deplorable/senseless ideologues (National/Act), with the ever obnoxious NZF in the mix. The rest of the parties are irrelevant.

Before the Greens supporters come along with the “They have lots of transformational ideas!” line, having ideas isn’t enough. The Greens have shown almost no capacity to get their ideas implemented and have allowed themselves to be played like a fiddle in the coalition.

quickymart

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#2521379 12-Jul-2020 10:38

quickymart:

I have a feeling he's going to struggle in the debates too. Christ alone knows he didn't do very well when under pressure here.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12346583

Update: I hadn't actually seen the whole interview myself, but the transcript here I thought made for quite amusing reading.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12347326

arcon

423 posts

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#2521407 12-Jul-2020 11:56

dejadeadnz:

Pretty much spot on.

Both are incredibly shallow intellectually. One displays rather pronounced traits of sociopathy/personal ruthlessness; the other one appears to be genuinely a bit kinder. But neither has achieved much of any great substance. Ardern simply shouldn't be given all the credit that she's been receiving for her COVID response. Shutting down in March was the obvious and only sensible thing to do and she did that -- well done but that doesn't deserve endless praise. As soon as things became more complex (e.g. see current situation), the government's response has been increasingly shambolic.

This could go OT and don't really want to derail the thread, but its highly questionable how good the Government's initial reaction was. Going hard and "early" was simply not true. Even that goofball Trump closed borders to European countries who had outbreaks on March 13 (of course it was too late for the US by then). Jacinda was 6 days later than Trump.... The border shutdown was late and absolutely contributed to the severity of lockdown, but obviously no politician has the balls to drive that point home.

That and the recent covid breaches increasingly suggest that while this government is strong at reactive leadership, they're reacting to problems which they should've seen coming if they had the foresight of a toddler.

Its a worry that maybe they're taking the same approach in other policy, i.e. that this could be a systemic problem with party ideology. Not that I'm particularly tempted by National's train wreck at the moment :D

Fred99

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#2521420 12-Jul-2020 12:48

arcon:

dejadeadnz:

Pretty much spot on.

Both are incredibly shallow intellectually. One displays rather pronounced traits of sociopathy/personal ruthlessness; the other one appears to be genuinely a bit kinder. But neither has achieved much of any great substance. Ardern simply shouldn't be given all the credit that she's been receiving for her COVID response. Shutting down in March was the obvious and only sensible thing to do and she did that -- well done but that doesn't deserve endless praise. As soon as things became more complex (e.g. see current situation), the government's response has been increasingly shambolic.

This could go OT and don't really want to derail the thread, but its highly questionable how good the Government's initial reaction was. Going hard and "early" was simply not true. Even that goofball Trump closed borders to European countries who had outbreaks on March 13 (of course it was too late for the US by then). Jacinda was 6 days later than Trump.... The border shutdown was late and absolutely contributed to the severity of lockdown, but obviously no politician has the balls to drive that point home.

That and the recent covid breaches increasingly suggest that while this government is strong at reactive leadership, they're reacting to problems which they should've seen coming if they had the foresight of a toddler.

Its a worry that maybe they're taking the same approach in other policy, i.e. that this could be a systemic problem with party ideology. Not that I'm particularly tempted by National's train wreck at the moment :D

Hindsight is a great thing from which to construct revisionist history.

Based on accurate information rather than speculation, NZ did what was needed, constrained by bad advice at the time (from WHO WRT border closure) and human rights concerns (ie for a huge number of NZ citizens wishing to return) and practical issues quarantining - doomed by the sheer numbers of returnees.

So I think you're dreaming. Proof - what we did worked. Revisionism to argue that was "luck" is dumb. Would we do it different "next time" - I'm sure we would. There's a problem when something unprecedented happens - you don't have experience to work with. Reason that it did succeed - I believe Ardern deserves credit for a pro-science approach - and for having the ability to lead with a very high level of public support, even if not from a few covidiots in the media, business, and opposition parties.

I'm sick of the bullsh*t targeting Ardern for "milking" the Covid response, massacre response. Regardless of whether partisan fools think she "milked the publicity" - she did the right thing. Sure - criticise her for failures - but it's very undignified and hypocritical to criticise her for success.

Edit to add : If you want further evidence that you're on the wrong track, then those views aren't being propagated by opposition politicians - who'd generally support her actions on both disasters. They're BS arguments being circulated by losers, whiners, and bleaters on social media, and one or two hard-right "opinion" columnists.

arcon

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#2521456 12-Jul-2020 14:51

Fred99:

Hindsight is a great thing from which to construct revisionist history.

Based on accurate information rather than speculation, NZ did what was needed, constrained by bad advice at the time (from WHO WRT border closure) and human rights concerns (ie for a huge number of NZ citizens wishing to return) and practical issues quarantining - doomed by the sheer numbers of returnees.

So I think you're dreaming. Proof - what we did worked. Revisionism to argue that was "luck" is dumb. Would we do it different "next time" - I'm sure we would. There's a problem when something unprecedented happens - you don't have experience to work with. Reason that it did succeed - I believe Ardern deserves credit for a pro-science approach - and for having the ability to lead with a very high level of public support, even if not from a few covidiots in the media, business, and opposition parties.

I'm sick of the bullsh*t targeting Ardern for "milking" the Covid response, massacre response. Regardless of whether partisan fools think she "milked the publicity" - she did the right thing. Sure - criticise her for failures - but it's very undignified and hypocritical to criticise her for success.

Edit to add : If you want further evidence that you're on the wrong track, then those views aren't being propagated by opposition politicians - who'd generally support her actions on both disasters. They're BS arguments being circulated by losers, whiners, and bleaters on social media, and one or two hard-right "opinion" columnists.

You are using "worked" in a pretty relative sense, and making statements without seemingly realizing you also don't have experience to work with, and weren't privy to government advisor discussions prior to border closure.

You already know the government did go against the advice of advisers (with returning kiwis), I'm not saying the govt approach wasn't practical or workable, but the point is you can't claim the government is always pro-science after that.

And just to clarify, the Auckland professor who pushed the views I quoted - who advised our Epidemic Response Committee on Covid - when he said we could have avoided lockdown if NZ wasn't caught with its pants down, he's not a scientist? He is just a loser and bleater on social media?

Don't imply that "your favorite" is the only one who cares about science if some of that science includes criticism, or imply that your side could only have done it best, as if you have already checked the other parallel universes. That's a somewhat bigger leap of hindsight...

Fred99

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#2521466 12-Jul-2020 15:46

arcon:

And just to clarify, the Auckland professor who pushed the views I quoted - who advised our Epidemic Response Committee on Covid - when he said we could have avoided lockdown if NZ wasn't caught with its pants down, he's not a scientist? He is just a loser and bleater on social media?

I assume you mean the Dunedin Professor? ( Skegg - the one who failed at the time to fully take into account practical limitations on the ability of NZ to provide full quarantine to cater for the numbers of NZ citizens/residents legally entitled to return to NZ).
You've headed down a rabbit-hole of conspiracy theory, that the government ignored such advice because they "didn't agree with science".

And yes - it is typical loser argument from partisan shills and whiners on social media.

Fred99

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#2521468 12-Jul-2020 15:48

arcon:

You are using "worked" in a pretty relative sense.

Oh no I'm not. That's simple fact. It worked - we have (for now) eliminated C-19 CT in NZ.

quickymart

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#2521499 12-Jul-2020 17:45

While Trump did close the borders before Jacinda, it's not like it would have made any difference to their situation, is it? Yes, you could argue our borders could have been closed earlier, for sure - but there's a bigger argument to be made that our overall response was far, far, far better than the US.

As a test, compare the death toll/case numbers of any state the size of New Zealand (Alabama, Louisiana, Kentucky and Oregon are pretty close in population to us, as per: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population) and I think you'll find our case numbers compared to any of those states are far better - and I know which response I would rather have had as well (hint: ours).

tdgeek

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#2521507 12-Jul-2020 18:05

Fred99:

arcon:

And just to clarify, the Auckland professor who pushed the views I quoted - who advised our Epidemic Response Committee on Covid - when he said we could have avoided lockdown if NZ wasn't caught with its pants down, he's not a scientist? He is just a loser and bleater on social media?

I assume you mean the Dunedin Professor? ( Skegg - the one who failed at the time to fully take into account practical limitations on the ability of NZ to provide full quarantine to cater for the numbers of NZ citizens/residents legally entitled to return to NZ).
You've headed down a rabbit-hole of conspiracy theory, that the government ignored such advice because they "didn't agree with science".

And yes - it is typical loser argument from partisan shills and whiners on social media.

Accountability is great. What I bolded is not accountability. As Ive often referred to, and has NEVER been responded to, there has been plenty of calls that Level 4 is too much, after two weeks, and Level 3 and 2 are too much, open the borders. Thank freaking God (sorry God) that short sightedness never happened.

[Responding to your post, not at you]

Handle9

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#2521508 12-Jul-2020 18:07

tdgeek:

Fred99:

I assume you mean the Dunedin Professor? ( Skegg - the one who failed at the time to fully take into account practical limitations on the ability of NZ to provide full quarantine to cater for the numbers of NZ citizens/residents legally entitled to return to NZ).
You've headed down a rabbit-hole of conspiracy theory, that the government ignored such advice because they "didn't agree with science".

And yes - it is typical loser argument from partisan shills and whiners on social media.

Accountability is great. What I bolded is not accountability. As Ive often referred to, and has NEVER been responded to, there has been plenty of calls that Level 4 is too much, after two weeks, and Level 3 and 2 are too much, open the borders. Thank freaking God (sorry God) that short sightedness never happened.

[Responding to your post, not at you]

I guess you're only allowed to be a partisan shill and a whiner if you support the government.

tdgeek

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#2521509 12-Jul-2020 18:09

quickymart:

While Trump did close the borders before Jacinda, it's not like it would have made any difference to their situation, is it? Yes, you could argue our borders could have been closed earlier, for sure - but there's a bigger argument to be made that our overall response was far, far, far better than the US.

As a test, compare the death toll/case numbers of any state the size of New Zealand (Alabama, Louisiana, Kentucky and Oregon are pretty close in population to us, as per: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population) and I think you'll find our case numbers compared to any of those states are far better - and I know which response I would rather have had as well (hint: ours).

NZ, being as remote as we are, got it later. I recall there was a case in the US, early days, in Washington state. Another case 50 miles away, and these two people never had any paths crossed. Thats the warning. CT. We had literally hardly any CT, even when we were in the think of it. We acted when we had to, US didnt.

tdgeek

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#2521514 12-Jul-2020 18:24

Handle9:

I guess you're only allowed to be a partisan shill and a whiner if you support the government.

I support this current Govt. So? Does that make me a shill? Ignoring the Jacinda Adern feel good factor, we had the option of doing what we have done, OR after two weeks (yes 14 short days) this Level 4 is BS lets get back to Level 3 and 2 quick and open the border. Im a swing voter, I don't care if Labour is progressive or liberal , whatever the lifelong Labour voters are, they acted Conservative, arguably against their mantra. It needed to be done. Going for a shortcut, to help the economy would be a huge gamble, and as we have seen, failed. Its all politics by definition, but at the end of the day the conservative response worked, and the Oppositions liberal view would have failed. Thankfully NZ is not Victoria, and on that the often mentioned open the bubble is now a non event.

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