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GV27
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  #2523982 16-Jul-2020 10:31
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Fred99:

 

"Flat taxes" won't fly.  

 

To get within a bull's roar of a balanced budget, that would require either massive spending cuts and/or effectively large tax increases on "middle NZ" (and throwing those who fall below middle ground to the wolves).

 

 

Unfortunately we already have set a precedent in this country that election promises don't have to be possible, rational, stack up or be sane in any meaningful way, at least not to the point where you expected to follow through on them. 


tdgeek
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  #2523988 16-Jul-2020 10:38
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GV27:

 

Fred99:

 

"Flat taxes" won't fly.  

 

To get within a bull's roar of a balanced budget, that would require either massive spending cuts and/or effectively large tax increases on "middle NZ" (and throwing those who fall below middle ground to the wolves).

 

 

Unfortunately we already have set a precedent in this country that election promises don't have to be possible, rational, stack up or be sane in any meaningful way, at least not to the point where you expected to follow through on them. 

 

 

Or make no promises at all, JK's winning election, then increase GST straight away without getting a voters mandate? Labours has passed many things, even though you probably disagree with every one, KB was not one pof them and CGT amnd others were scrapped by NZF. The usual commentary is the the Govt has done "nothing"


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
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  #2523993 16-Jul-2020 10:44
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We will apparently pay for Covid-19 by way of growth, I'm looking forward to an actual "policy" on how that will occur. Unlike Labours promises it will of course be full of detail, timelines, and metrics of the delivery. I thougth we lost international tourism, and for the rest of us we are in a recession, so Im a little unsure where this growth will emanate from

 

In short, finding loose ends isnt monopolised by Labour, by a long shot. I fully agree with all the commentary on KB but at the end of the day there should not have been a need to fix the destroyed housing affordability, anyway


MikeB4
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  #2523994 16-Jul-2020 10:48
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I feel a good move would be a temporary increase in GST to 18% to help balance the books and temporary decrease in the National Super entitlement date to help ease unemployment by enabling a group of seniors to leave the work force. Cut back spending that involves overseas spending eg defence procurement, pull all overseas defence deployments back home and channel those savings into public works in NZ using NZ sources to help employment and economic stimulation. 


tdgeek
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  #2524003 16-Jul-2020 11:02
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MikeB4:

 

I feel a good move would be a temporary increase in GST to 18% to help balance the books and temporary decrease in the National Super entitlement date to help ease unemployment by enabling a group of seniors to leave the work force. Cut back spending that involves overseas spending eg defence procurement, pull all overseas defence deployments back home and channel those savings into public works in NZ using NZ sources to help employment and economic stimulation. 

 

 

Agree, any and all measures need to be looked at. Tax increase, decrease spending, etc, we all need to pitch in. Id prefer a seperate tax so that it can be removed later (if it went beyond GST to maintain some equitable solution) and metrics given so the public knows what its based on and when it will reduce/end.  Once the economy settles down, we can look at how long the excess debt can be lived with/how soon to pay it down. I.e. when the borrowing tool ends, and we switch to payback


dejadeadnz
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  #2524104 16-Jul-2020 12:12
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MikeB4:

 

I feel a good move would be a temporary increase in GST to 18% to help balance the books and temporary decrease in the National Super entitlement date to help ease unemployment by enabling a group of seniors to leave the work force. Cut back spending that involves overseas spending eg defence procurement, pull all overseas defence deployments back home and channel those savings into public works in NZ using NZ sources to help employment and economic stimulation. 

 

 

Most of the ideas here are worth thinking about but increase in GST would be terribly regressive. People who are already poor and struggling still have to eat.

 

 


Fred99
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  #2524127 16-Jul-2020 13:09
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dejadeadnz:

 

MikeB4:

 

I feel a good move would be a temporary increase in GST to 18% to help balance the books and temporary decrease in the National Super entitlement date to help ease unemployment by enabling a group of seniors to leave the work force. Cut back spending that involves overseas spending eg defence procurement, pull all overseas defence deployments back home and channel those savings into public works in NZ using NZ sources to help employment and economic stimulation. 

 

 

Most of the ideas here are worth thinking about but increase in GST would be terribly regressive. People who are already poor and struggling still have to eat.

 

 

There's also the problem that an increase to 18% may generate $4 billion gross, less the top-ups to super, WFF, accomm supplement etc, so say net $3 billion, with anticipated low economic growth, then "temporary" would need to be decades - or the increase would need to be much higher.

 

Announcing increase in a GST stimulates spending before introduction, followed by a drop which slowly recovers.  The bigger the increase the stronger the effect - if there's an end date to a temporary increase, then people will defer buying houses, farms, businesses whatever until after the increase is reversed.  It's not going to happen when we're already headed for recession of unknown depth and duration - it'll just make everything worse.

 

I think we're stuck for now with what we're doing - increasing debt to keep the local economy shielded.  When the future environment is more clear, then look at how we reduce debt.  Pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that Trump hasn't created the biggest asset bubble of all time which will inevitably collapse, and that geopolitical posturing doesn't put NZ in the position of having to "take sides" in the US:China trade wars.

 

National's problem is that they've been complaining about Labour not having a plan - when neither do they or could they have anything but vague notions they can't (or would be very unwise to) commit to.


 
 
 
 


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  #2524154 16-Jul-2020 13:54
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@dejadeadnz I agree regarding GST. I thought about this a lot. Increasing  taxation affects low income be it by direct taxation or GST and I feel that increasing GST gives an element of choice regarding payment of the increased taxation. Neither is ideal as someone with little to no fat to trim from their budget has little room to move and they pay a higher percentage of their income on consumption taxes.

 

Regarding increased taxation on higher incomes I am not sure works given avoidance etc. Also the investment income that can create jobs comes from the higher income groups. There is a risk that by increasing taxation at the upper levels could reduce the amount of discretionary income that can be used for investment.

 

It really is a rock and a hard place scenario but I do believe that those least able to adjust to increased taxation should be the first to be shielded from the increase.


MurrayM
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  #2524160 16-Jul-2020 14:16
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MikeB4:

 

Regarding increased taxation on higher incomes I am not sure works given avoidance etc. Also the investment income that can create jobs comes from the higher income groups. There is a risk that by increasing taxation at the upper levels could reduce the amount of discretionary income that can be used for investment.

 

 

What about the millionaires that sent that letter that was quite literally begging governments to tax them more?


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  #2524161 16-Jul-2020 14:20
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MurrayM:

 

 

 

What about the millionaires that sent that letter that was quite literally begging governments to tax them more?

 

 

It is probably the old sceptic in me but I am not sure of the motives and honesty of their public statements. If they are genuine then absolute kudos to them.


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  #2524168 16-Jul-2020 14:44
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MikeB4:

 

I feel a good move would be a temporary increase in GST to 18% to help balance the books and temporary decrease in the National Super entitlement date to help ease unemployment by enabling a group of seniors to leave the work force. Cut back spending that involves overseas spending eg defence procurement, pull all overseas defence deployments back home and channel those savings into public works in NZ using NZ sources to help employment and economic stimulation. 

 

 

No tax increase is ever 'temporary'. Once you have 18% GST, you have it forever.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


networkn
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  #2524169 16-Jul-2020 14:45
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Rikkitic:

 

MikeB4:

 

I feel a good move would be a temporary increase in GST to 18% to help balance the books and temporary decrease in the National Super entitlement date to help ease unemployment by enabling a group of seniors to leave the work force. Cut back spending that involves overseas spending eg defence procurement, pull all overseas defence deployments back home and channel those savings into public works in NZ using NZ sources to help employment and economic stimulation. 

 

 

No tax increase is ever 'temporary'. Once you have 18% GST, you have it forever.

 

 

 

 

Well, until the next election at least. If the same Government who enacted the increase is elected, even less likely it gets reduced.

 

 


MikeB4
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  #2524171 16-Jul-2020 14:50
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Rikkitic:

 

MikeB4:

 

I feel a good move would be a temporary increase in GST to 18% to help balance the books and temporary decrease in the National Super entitlement date to help ease unemployment by enabling a group of seniors to leave the work force. Cut back spending that involves overseas spending eg defence procurement, pull all overseas defence deployments back home and channel those savings into public works in NZ using NZ sources to help employment and economic stimulation. 

 

 

No tax increase is ever 'temporary'. Once you have 18% GST, you have it forever.

 

 

 

 

Unless there is a way for government to generate income then increasing taxation is inevitable. The government has no option right now but to spend money but there will come a time when the ferryman has to be paid. The government can reduce spending to a degree but there is also at level of cuts that will then add to the recession. The government can pass time bombed taxation legislation so when its time to further stimulate the domestic market the increase ceases.


Handle9
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  #2524214 16-Jul-2020 16:16
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MikeB4:

I feel a good move would be a temporary increase in GST to 18% to help balance the books and temporary decrease in the National Super entitlement date to help ease unemployment by enabling a group of seniors to leave the work force. Cut back spending that involves overseas spending eg defence procurement, pull all overseas defence deployments back home and channel those savings into public works in NZ using NZ sources to help employment and economic stimulation. 




The only way that makes any sense is to introduce means testing on all benefits, not just the ones for poor people.



MikeB4
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  #2524218 16-Jul-2020 16:21
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Handle9:
The only way that makes any sense is to introduce means testing on all benefits, not just the ones for poor people.


 

It does make sense. If we reduce the retirement age to say 63 for a defined period it allows access to Kiwisaver and allows seniors to retire and leave the work force thus helping ease unemployment, This in turn can reduce dependency on job seeker benefits.


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