NZ Election 2020

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1133 posts

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#2529807 27-Jul-2020 20:23

As @tdgeek said, not easy. I can see this both ways.

You've gone overseas for whatever reason (greener pastures), you've not contributed to NZ, why should the country you left pick up your bill? Vs

You are a New Zealander and will always be a part of this country (entitled to come here), and this is an important public health measure and not something done for your own benefit.

What about people coming for funerals who will go again afterwards? Should they pay? My gut feel says maybe they should, but then again it's not their fault a relative died during a pandemic and adding yet more cost won't help them. Then again, why do the rest of us have to suffer financially (after all it's not our fault your relative died during a pandemic).

Not easy at all, and quite frankly I don't actually know what my opinion is on it.

tdgeek

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#2529814 27-Jul-2020 20:31

antonknee:

As @tdgeek said, not easy. I can see this both ways.

You've gone overseas for whatever reason (greener pastures), you've not contributed to NZ, why should the country you left pick up your bill? Vs

You are a New Zealander and will always be a part of this country (entitled to come here), and this is an important public health measure and not something done for your own benefit.

What about people coming for funerals who will go again afterwards? Should they pay? My gut feel says maybe they should, but then again it's not their fault a relative died during a pandemic and adding yet more cost won't help them. Then again, why do the rest of us have to suffer financially (after all it's not our fault your relative died during a pandemic).

Not easy at all, and quite frankly I don't actually know what my opinion is on it.

Agree. The Govt could say we will be fair, case by case, then you get 5000 applications. Tough

Handle9

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#2529817 27-Jul-2020 20:38

antonknee:

As @tdgeek said, not easy. I can see this both ways.

You've gone overseas for whatever reason (greener pastures), you've not contributed to NZ, why should the country you left pick up your bill? Vs

You are a New Zealander and will always be a part of this country (entitled to come here), and this is an important public health measure and not something done for your own benefit.

What about people coming for funerals who will go again afterwards? Should they pay? My gut feel says maybe they should, but then again it's not their fault a relative died during a pandemic and adding yet more cost won't help them. Then again, why do the rest of us have to suffer financially (after all it's not our fault your relative died during a pandemic).

Not easy at all, and quite frankly I don't actually know what my opinion is on it.

The money side of things doesn't really bother me. At some point some form of co-payment is reasonably fair.

The clueless crap is what annoys me. The people saying "they had their chance, they should be back by now" are delusional about the realities of getting flights and packing ones life up. Everyone in the world has made massive sacrifices due to COVID and a lot are returning in fairly tough circumstances. Most of them just want to go home, behave themselves and get on with their lives. Most people aren't bitching about quarantine and most aren't running away.

It amuses me to hear that expats haven't contributed to NZ. I'm fairly sure I've paid far more tax over the last 20 years than most kiwis would in their lifetime, and I was content to do so. I guess that doesn't count after being away for 2 years.

Fred99

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#2529858 27-Jul-2020 22:50

Handle9:

The clueless crap is what annoys me. The people saying "they had their chance, they should be back by now" are delusional about the realities of getting flights and packing ones life up.

That's what the leader of the opposition is saying.

Handle9

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#2529885 28-Jul-2020 04:17

Fred99:
Handle9:

The clueless crap is what annoys me. The people saying "they had their chance, they should be back by now" are delusional about the realities of getting flights and packing ones life up.

That's what the leader of the opposition is saying.

Par for the course. It just needs Shane Jones involved now.

GV27

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#2529887 28-Jul-2020 06:49

Handle9:

It amuses me to hear that expats haven't contributed to NZ. I'm fairly sure I've paid far more tax over the last 20 years than most kiwis would in their lifetime, and I was content to do so. I guess that doesn't count after being away for 2 years.

I have a friend who made it back (somehow) from the USA who probably wouldn't have if they had actually taken things seriously. Incidentally, she was not tested before she left isolation, but that was earlier on.

I'm amused by this argument from a professional viewpoint more than anything else, given that the theory that underlies our tax residency test is based on your 'enduring ties to NZ'. People usually can't disavow NZ fast enough when it comes to getting out of paying tax here, but how quickly things change when they need to!

Arguing the toss on the basis that you 'pay tax on your rental properties' doesn't seem to appeal to people who live here, for some strange reason 😅

Wander4821

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#2530424 29-Jul-2020 05:20

When there are normal conditions it would be unacceptable to deny citizens entry and deny services and rights. Though no government is responsible for immediate repatriation of citizens during a major disaster at home or abroad or evacuating citizens from warzones or pandemic-ridden areas they freely entered. That said just because they aren't responsible doesn't mean they won't help. Ardern said there will be some fee put in place soon though.

When 'normal' returns to the global economy, then probably there are some things that might be considered regressive in the rights of citizens abroad. Most countries allow their citizens to vote no matter the time away, and pension rights aren't revoked on technicalities if you leave the country and return.

Also because NZ citizens abroad have no voting rights after three years, the government has no incentive to cater to ex-pats. That said, the IRD charges massive taxes on money my family send back to NZ. So taxation without representation I guess.

Even when I lived in NZ I disliked Student Loans, so my opinion is still they shouldn't exist as they were created as a neo-liberal project by politicians who never paid a cent to go to uni themselves, and knocked the ladder down for those that came after them.

I have a loan myself that I have to pay at least 1k a year, though most just give up and declare bankruptcy or ignore it. That's the same back in NZ too, as most student loans are too unaffordable to be ever paid back without a 6 digit salary. Though politicians in both parties are determined to squeeze students for money they can never possibly obtain, and there is a sizable voting block of "all students are lazy and should get a job".

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GV27

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#2530513 29-Jul-2020 08:45

Wander4821:

Also because NZ citizens abroad have no voting rights after three years, the government has no incentive to cater to ex-pats. That said, the IRD charges massive taxes on money my family send back to NZ. So taxation without representation I guess.

Even when I lived in NZ I disliked Student Loans, so my opinion is still they shouldn't exist as they were created as a neo-liberal project by politicians who never paid a cent to go to uni themselves, and knocked the ladder down for those that came after them.

I have a loan myself that I have to pay at least 1k a year, though most just give up and declare bankruptcy or ignore it. That's the same back in NZ too, as most student loans are too unaffordable to be ever paid back without a 6 digit salary. Though politicians in both parties are determined to squeeze students for money they can never possibly obtain, and there is a sizable voting block of "all students are lazy and should get a job".

My understanding is that you retain the right to cast a party vote if you spent one day per three years in NZ? Doesn't seem entirely unreasonable. If you are still considered a tax resident then surely you're coming back at least once in that time-frame?

NZ student loans are a scam, the Australian system has a threshold literally 2x ours (no repayments below $46K, ours is $21k) and their repayment rate scales with income from there upwards. Ours is just 12 cents in the dollar above the threshold, no ifs, ands or butts.

Even if you make over $134K in Aus, which is the top of the chart for the repayment rates, you're still only paying it back at 10 cents in the dollar above the threshold.

Student debt is basically held at sub-prime levels and writing it off for every resident taxpaying Kiwi would unshackle the economy in ways we can't possible imagine. It's maddening because parties in opposition come up with some really inventive policies for student loans and then get into power and do literally nothing about it.

National: Offered a bonus write-off if you made extra payments. Abandoned it because too many people were making use of it!

NZ First: Wanted to write off a portion of your loan for every year you stayed in NZ after studying (10% I think?)

Someone also proposed a dollar-for-dollar repayment scheme but I can't remember who, unfortunately.

Robertson ruled out any student loan repayment relief but even Trump suspended federal student loan repayments for six months when things started going nuts in the US with Covid19.

At this rate I'd be happy if we just copied and poasted the Australian personal tax rates, threshold and student loan repayment rates into our tax code. I'd consider voting for anyone who proposed it.

GV27

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#2530520 29-Jul-2020 08:51

Wander4821:
I have a loan myself that I have to pay at least 1k a year, though most just give up and declare bankruptcy or ignore it. That's the same back in NZ too, as most student loans are too unaffordable to be ever paid back without a 6 digit salary. Though politicians in both parties are determined to squeeze students for money they can never possibly obtain, and there is a sizable voting block of "all students are lazy and should get a job".

Also, I'll thow this in here: Many Kiwis who live here and who are paying huge living costs on tiny salaries are making substantial payments on student loans, while earning substantially less than six-digit salaries. Worst of both worlds, really.

But yea, end student loans as a backdoor alternative to actually funding universities properly.

Wander4821

34 posts

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#2530698 29-Jul-2020 12:38

GV27:
Wander4821:
I have a loan myself that I have to pay at least 1k a year, though most just give up and declare bankruptcy or ignore it. That's the same back in NZ too, as most student loans are too unaffordable to be ever paid back without a 6 digit salary. Though politicians in both parties are determined to squeeze students for money they can never possibly obtain, and there is a sizable voting block of "all students are lazy and should get a job".

Also, I'll thow this in here: Many Kiwis who live here and who are paying huge living costs on tiny salaries are making substantial payments on student loans, while earning substantially less than six-digit salaries. Worst of both worlds, really.

But yea, end student loans as a backdoor alternative to actually funding universities properly.

They are used as an excuse to not deal with the hard questions like should the government encourage 18 year olds to take on a generational debt, when university does not guarantee a job that is right for them. Many other countries offer grants instead that are attached to academic performance, or have trades programs that actually give future generations skills that don't leave them debt burden. There is a lot of academic snobbery and looking down on professions that pay well, but don't come with 5 years of filling university balance sheets. The massive debt burden to taxpayers wouldn't exist if student loans weren't used to hide the true cost to everyone.

Wander4821

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#2530705 29-Jul-2020 12:58

My understanding is that you retain the right to cast a party vote if you spent one day per three years in NZ? Doesn't seem entirely unreasonable. If you are still considered a tax resident then surely you're coming back at least once in that time-frame?

IRD taxes all money coming into New Zealand from New Zealand citizens, regardless of tax residency status, and takes phantom tax payments each year. That's why I closed my own NZ bank accounts, as it is a means for the IRD to phantom tax me each year.

There are multiple phantom taxes the IRD employs, but I can give a brief list of some of them:
- The gift tax which is charged whenever a NZ citizen sends money to a relative or friend.
- There is a transactions tax based upon the amount of money that is sent to your personal bank accounts overseas to your personal bank accounts in NZ.
- There is a tax on moving amounts from savings to checking accounts, which targets savings and kiwisaver contributions.

The only transaction not phantom taxed is tax payments direct to IRD or Student Loan payments, though Westpac NZ as the official overseas banker takes a cut.

Handle9

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#2530793 29-Jul-2020 14:46

Wander4821:
My understanding is that you retain the right to cast a party vote if you spent one day per three years in NZ? Doesn't seem entirely unreasonable. If you are still considered a tax resident then surely you're coming back at least once in that time-frame?
IRD taxes all money coming into New Zealand from New Zealand citizens, regardless of tax residency status, and takes phantom tax payments each year. That's why I closed my own NZ bank accounts, as it is a means for the IRD to phantom tax me each year.

There are multiple phantom taxes the IRD employs, but I can give a brief list of some of them:
- The gift tax which is charged whenever a NZ citizen sends money to a relative or friend.
- There is a transactions tax based upon the amount of money that is sent to your personal bank accounts overseas to your personal bank accounts in NZ.
- There is a tax on moving amounts from savings to checking accounts, which targets savings and kiwisaver contributions.

The only transaction not phantom taxed is tax payments direct to IRD or Student Loan payments, though Westpac NZ as the official overseas banker takes a cut.

Pretty much everything you wrote above is nonsense. Tax residency is a complex issue but there aren't phantom taxes as you describe them.

tdgeek

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#2531019 29-Jul-2020 19:30

Interesting

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300069315/national-and-nz-first-promise-to-charge-more-returning-kiwis-after-election

NZ First keeps bagging the Govt, thats all good. This is the latest. Now, from the negotiator in me, they can bag the Govt so they can align with National. Its about the end result. But if national is well on the downer, why bag the Govt? if NZF wants in, they can be aggressive, but its like they dont want to be in Govt? Its very possible that it won't be a Kingmaker election. So why bag them? If it was heading towards a very close Labour-National election, then bagging them is good as both will be well up for a NZF coalition.

I dont quite get it. Its unlikely that everyone will flock to NZF

GV27

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#2531212 30-Jul-2020 09:09

Handle9:

Pretty much everything you wrote above is nonsense. Tax residency is a complex issue but there aren't phantom taxes as you describe them.

Thank you for putting that more diplomatically than I was going to be able to. I don't really want another holiday from GZ 😅

Colmar Brunton poll results tonight. Interesting to hear they were polling up to last night so the Newshub poll could arguably be a self-fulfilling prophecy - at least that's what I think we'll see claimed if things don't work out better for JuCo.

Expecting a better-ish result from the Nats and a strong swing to the Greens as the left starts to think tactically to keep NZ First out.

antonknee

1133 posts

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#2531247 30-Jul-2020 09:50

Would like to know more about these phantom taxes please @Wander4821.

Re CB poll tonight I'm also expecting a slightly better result for National, but not by much. I think at least 30% of this country wold vote blue no matter who - there are a number of electorates where you could stick a blue ribbon on a sack of potatoes and it would be elected. So rightly or wrongly I think their baseline of support is around that 30% number.

The Greens have not been polling all that well given their performance in government. Suspect a lot of it is sitting with Labour given support for Jacinda Ardern. I anticipate (hope) a number of left voters may well switch thier vote Green, as it supports a Labour-led government, and as @GV27 said neutralises the Winston threat.

Act will continue to poll well (for them) and I thnk NZF will continue to poll poorly, as will the other parties.

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