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GV27
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  #2535013 5-Aug-2020 11:22
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antonknee:

 

GV27:

 

What a poor position for voters: The current govt who announces campaign policy it has no intention or capability of following through on and can't be trusted, or the opposition who is changing leaders every five weeks, can't articulate any policy that isn't a road and can't be trusted. 

 

 

To be fair to the current government (and all governments in MMP). In a campaign you are showcasing the policy you would enact if you were the government, ie if Labour were in a one party government and had a majority. The reality is that on election day, the government is formed by multiple parties - so you will by necessity always end up with something different to what was pushed on the campaign trail. It's just the reality of MMP. 

 

The same is true of any MMP government. We didn't necessarily get what National had campaigned on in their previous terms, because they had United Future and the Maori Party influencing the policy that came out. In fairness, Labour have it worse on this front because they have less seats - so they actually need their coalition partners to get things through - which means the government policy will be markedly different from campaign policy.

 

That said, there are some obvious losses from the current government that aren't necessarily excusable by the above statement. To say they can't be trusted is unfair and untrue though.

 

 

Labour was always going to go into coalition involving the Greens and NZ First if they wanted to govern. I've made this point before. Campaign promises can not suddenly disappear because the slate magically gets wiped clean when you enter a coalition agreement; people who voted for you did so on the expectation that you would make certain things happen. We don't let companies do it it - it's called 'bait and switch' and regulators take a very dim view of it. Labour was always going to require the support of the parties it ended up in power with - to turn around and blame them for things like Light Rail (which was derailed by two years of incompetence before Winston nixed it) is trying to play a get-out-of-jail-free card for being accountable to the people who elected you.

 

Otherwise, you're making a case that parties should be able to promise whatever they like with no imperative to deliver it. That totally undermines the idea of an informed voter casting a vote for someone to represent their interests, which is the basis for how democratic governments are elected and derive their mandate. If it were "vote for us and then we'll spend three years doing whatever we want and we don't feel obliged to do anything we campaign on" then I suspect you find that a substantially harder sell to the voting public.

 

The other aggravating factor is that we are not talking about a couple of things here and there, we are talking about nearly every flagship policy - including ones they had used a platform to (rightly) attack the incumbent government for 'inaction'.

 

E: I should point out that I feel National and Labour have a higher moral imperative to campaign on 'real' tangible things than the fantastical nonsense that ACT or the Greens put up - the policy concessions should flow from the major parties to the minor parties, not from the major parties into the ether because their basis for getting votes was actually totally unworkable.


 
 
 
 

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Rikkitic
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  #2535157 5-Aug-2020 14:09
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I vote progressive and I support the government, but I am sad to say I have to agree with you for the most part. 

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


antonknee
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  #2535165 5-Aug-2020 14:25
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GV27:

 

Campaign promises can not suddenly disappear because the slate magically gets wiped clean when you enter a coalition agreement; people who voted for you did so on the expectation that you would make certain things happen. We don't let companies do it it - it's called 'bait and switch' and regulators take a very dim view of it. Labour was always going to require the support of the parties it ended up in power with...

 

 

Of course not, and I don't think anyone would advocate for a clean slate, just for a tempering of reality. It's more that you can hardly expect purity and strict adherence to campaign promises. If we had a government with just Labour in it, then we should quite rightly be asking about broken promises. I just think more allowance needs to be given seeing as it's a government with Labour in it, not a Labour government. It's just how MMP works - and one of its flaws in comparison to FPP voting.

 

Further, no political party is going to (or even be able to) campaign on "here's what you get if we get into a coalition with this party, here's what you get if it's coalition with that party, here's what you get if it's just us".

 

It's not about excusing broken campaign promises, it's just about what's practical to expect in the real world and the policitical system we have.

 

For the record - I'm actually really disappointed with the key failures around Kiwibuild, light rail and CGT to pick three that mattered to me personally from the campaign trail.




GV27
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  #2535233 5-Aug-2020 15:06
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antonknee:

 

It's not about excusing broken campaign promises, it's just about what's practical to expect in the real world and the policitical system we have.

 

For the record - I'm actually really disappointed with the key failures around Kiwibuild, light rail and CGT to pick three that mattered to me personally from the campaign trail.

 

 

To be honest, I think I'd be more charitable about if they'd got any one of those over the line (my personal preference is obv. light rail) but the real whack is the fact that none of them did, while the PGF carries on its merry way. 


Handle9
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  #2535253 5-Aug-2020 15:47
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antonknee:

 

GV27:

 

Campaign promises can not suddenly disappear because the slate magically gets wiped clean when you enter a coalition agreement; people who voted for you did so on the expectation that you would make certain things happen. We don't let companies do it it - it's called 'bait and switch' and regulators take a very dim view of it. Labour was always going to require the support of the parties it ended up in power with...

 

 

Of course not, and I don't think anyone would advocate for a clean slate, just for a tempering of reality. It's more that you can hardly expect purity and strict adherence to campaign promises. If we had a government with just Labour in it, then we should quite rightly be asking about broken promises. I just think more allowance needs to be given seeing as it's a government with Labour in it, not a Labour government. It's just how MMP works - and one of its flaws in comparison to FPP voting.

 

Further, no political party is going to (or even be able to) campaign on "here's what you get if we get into a coalition with this party, here's what you get if it's coalition with that party, here's what you get if it's just us".

 

It's not about excusing broken campaign promises, it's just about what's practical to expect in the real world and the policitical system we have.

 

For the record - I'm actually really disappointed with the key failures around Kiwibuild, light rail and CGT to pick three that mattered to me personally from the campaign trail.

 

 

There is a difference between not removing policy due to coalition negotiations and gross incompetence in delivering them. The first is political reality and as voters we need to understand that. It is as inherent to the nature of MMP as jeering is to the operation of the house. It's just how the sausage is made.

 

The second is inexcusable and the problem with this government. The failure of the infrastructure and housing policies does make it incredibly hard to trust their promises.


tdgeek
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  #2535419 5-Aug-2020 18:11
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Handle9:

 

The second is inexcusable and the problem with this government. The failure of the infrastructure and housing policies does make it incredibly hard to trust their promises.

 

 

Can you expand on each? Kiwibuild, yes, we all agree that was a goal that due to inheritance could not be achieved.

 

Glass half full, a new young Govt. A few laggards that are now gone. Learnings. 1/4 of the period has been Covid. Coalition with NZF stopped many things including going after EV's. Should Labour win with no NZF, then they have no excuse. Infrastructure wise, National did nothing, so its more or less an own goal there. They now have lots of stuff, non costed, as if they are fighting the voting train with anything. 9 years didn't show much. They built 30,000 houses, oops, no, it was 2670, plus 95 less 2900 odd.

 

There is not a lot of talent in Labour. But some cream has risen. National is bereft of anyone

 

Id rather give Robertson a shot than Judith and Gerry 


Handle9
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  #2535424 5-Aug-2020 18:22
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tdgeek:

 

Handle9:

 

The second is inexcusable and the problem with this government. The failure of the infrastructure and housing policies does make it incredibly hard to trust their promises.

 

 

Can you expand on each? Kiwibuild, yes, we all agree that was a goal that due to inheritance could not be achieved.

 

Glass half full, a new young Govt. A few laggards that are now gone. Learnings. 1/4 of the period has been Covid. Coalition with NZF stopped many things including going after EV's. Should Labour win with no NZF, then they have no excuse. Infrastructure wise, National did nothing, so its more or less an own goal there. They now have lots of stuff, non costed, as if they are fighting the voting train with anything. 9 years didn't show much. They built 30,000 houses, oops, no, it was 2670, plus 95 less 2900 odd.

 

There is not a lot of talent in Labour. But some cream has risen. National is bereft of anyone

 

Id rather give Robertson a shot than Judith and Gerry 

 

 

Kiwibuild was a promise made. Inheritance wasn't the problem, competence was. It is an abject failure of the government. What changed between them making the promise and them failing? Nothing. They completely failed.

 

Light rail from the city to the airport was promised to be completed by 2027. There is nothing and it was stopped due to Labours incompetence. Blaming NZ First is just a cop out. If Labour doesn't understand their own coalition agreement they are idiots. Labour made promises that it couldn't keep. Twyfords latest claim is by 2030 but does anyone believe Twyford? There is absolutely no reason to believe anything he says.




tdgeek
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  #2535427 5-Aug-2020 18:38
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Handle9:

 

Kiwibuild was a promise made. Inheritance wasn't the problem, competence was. It is an abject failure of the government. What changed between them making the promise and them failing? Nothing. They completely failed.

 

Light rail from the city to the airport was promised to be completed by 2027. There is nothing and it was stopped due to Labours incompetence. Blaming NZ First is just a cop out. If Labour doesn't understand their own coalition agreement they are idiots. Labour made promises that it couldn't keep. Twyfords latest claim is by 2030 but does anyone believe Twyford? There is absolutely no reason to believe anything he says.

 

 

Kiwibuild was a promise made. Easy to argue it was a bribe, it probably was. No one could have managed it, as affordability was already gone. The inability to build a lot of affordable houses was already set in stone. Not unless they created their own Govt builder company and made everything at a loss.

 

NZF blocked light rail. yes there were issues over who would fund it. Labour went with NZF so they wore all the blocks and they wore all the extra cost, ie PGF. Te litmus test is if they get in without a ball and chain, then you can compare with National who governed without that ball and chain for most of their 9 years. Personally I rate Robertson. getting past the new young and inexperienced Govt they cant rely on that now. No need for a revolutionary vote catching Kiwibuild type policy. They have an infrastructure plan, that is costed, they have a buffer of borrowings they they haven't throne at the country. They used the tools required and have been conservative. All National can do is say today there will be no tax cuts. I guess thats major but for most its obvious


Handle9
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  #2535435 5-Aug-2020 18:56
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That all makes Kiwibuild fine then. No need to worry about either lying or incompetence. Nothing to see here.

 

NZ First didn't block light rail. They Twyfords proposed scheme which wasn't what was in the coalition agreement.

 

If Robertson was going to ride in on his white horse to save the day why hasn't he already? It's not going to happen, he's minister of finance not minister of everything. It's not a part time job in any way.

 

This is one of the worst parliaments in my life time. The general level of competence on both sides of the house is incredibly low.


tdgeek
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  #2535438 5-Aug-2020 19:13
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Handle9:

 

That all makes Kiwibuild fine then. No need to worry about either lying or incompetence. Nothing to see here.

 

NZ First didn't block light rail. They Twyfords proposed scheme which wasn't what was in the coalition agreement.

 

If Robertson was going to ride in on his white horse to save the day why hasn't he already? It's not going to happen, he's minister of finance not minister of everything. It's not a part time job in any way.

 

This is one of the worst parliaments in my life time. The general level of competence on both sides of the house is incredibly low.

 

 

Who said Kiwibuild was fine?

 

Ill complain to the websites where google search gave those headlines

 

Roberstins white horse? What are you on? I said I rate him. The main issue now is the economy, I believe that has some vague relationship with the Ministry of Finance

 

Yes it is low, its been low for well over a decade, if you consider sitting on the hands is not great shakes either.  


tdgeek
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  #2535440 5-Aug-2020 19:16
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Handle9:

 

 

 

This is one of the worst parliaments in my life time. The general level of competence on both sides of the house is incredibly low.

 

 

An option is to vote for either or dont vote as nothing will be done. So, its square either way


GV27
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  #2535444 5-Aug-2020 19:28
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Light Rail was meant to be running from the CBD to Mt Roskill by 2021 - airport AND North West Auckland were both ATAP 2 decade one priority projects (so by 2028). 


Handle9
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  #2535458 5-Aug-2020 20:00
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tdgeek:

 

Handle9:

 

That all makes Kiwibuild fine then. No need to worry about either lying or incompetence. Nothing to see here.

 

NZ First didn't block light rail. They Twyfords proposed scheme which wasn't what was in the coalition agreement.

 

If Robertson was going to ride in on his white horse to save the day why hasn't he already? It's not going to happen, he's minister of finance not minister of everything. It's not a part time job in any way.

 

This is one of the worst parliaments in my life time. The general level of competence on both sides of the house is incredibly low.

 

 

Who said Kiwibuild was fine?

 

Ill complain to the websites where google search gave those headlines

 

Roberstins white horse? What are you on? I said I rate him. The main issue now is the economy, I believe that has some vague relationship with the Ministry of Finance

 

Yes it is low, its been low for well over a decade, if you consider sitting on the hands is not great shakes either.  

 

 

Have you actually read the articles about why NZF blocked the proposed light rail project? It was radically different project to that which was in the coalition agreement (grade separated, the funding mechanism wasn't what was agreed, partly overseas owned etc etc.) As usual Twyford wasn't competent enough to understand the issues and didn't get NZ First to agree before he went off on another tangent.

 

You were the one who bought up Robertson in response to the governments abject failures on infrastructure. You've done this before and it doesn't make any sense.

 

Saying that talent has been low for a decade is true on the Labour side, not on the National side. You may disagree with their policies but English, Ryall, Bennett, Joyce etc knew how to execute.


tdgeek
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  #2535459 5-Aug-2020 20:01
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GV27:

 

Light Rail was meant to be running from the CBD to Mt Roskill by 2021 - airport AND North West Auckland were both ATAP 2 decade one priority projects (so by 2028). 

 

 

And? there was no issue with funding, NZF fully supported it, and it was nothing to do with what was termed the Greater Auckland plan of=r whatever it was called, which is where AKL will go in future decades in which transport has a big part in. So 2021 was a fail, so vote National to get that easily sorted and in quick time

 

Sorted


tdgeek
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  #2535461 5-Aug-2020 20:10
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Handle9:

 

Have you actually read the articles about why NZF blocked the proposed light rail project? It was radically different project to that which was in the coalition agreement (grade separated, the funding mechanism wasn't what was agreed, partly overseas owned etc etc.) As usual Twyford wasn't competent enough to understand the issues and didn't get NZ First to agree before he went off on another tangent.

 

You were the one who bought up Robertson in response to the governments abject failures on infrastructure. You've done this before and it doesn't make any sense.

 

Saying that talent has been low for a decade is true on the Labour side, not on the National side. You may disagree with their policies but English, Ryall, Bennett, Joyce etc knew how to execute.

 

 

So the light rail wasn't 100% as per the coalition agreement? Such a major task is highly unlikely to be exactly as per.

 

Robertson doesn't run infrastructure I dont recall saying that or relating him to infrastructure. As a Minister of Finance, his ability to do his job would allow any capability to have an infrastructure plan workable. 

 

You just stated that the level on both sides is low. Now you say not on the National side? Which is it?  

 

I have no issue with Nationals policies, conservatism, holding back spending, and showing a surplus is fine. Too long like that and IMO its not fine, then we gert bribed with tax cuts. 

 

But I'm keen to see "You just stated that the level on both sides is low. Now you say not on the National side? Which is it?  "


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