NZ Election 2020

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Awrrr
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#2544247 19-Aug-2020 09:09

Some people seem to get very sour at the thought that a Labour-led government can possibly do anything right, especially when it is something that really counts. Yes, mistakes have been made, there has been sloppiness, people haven't done their jobs, things that should have happened didn't. In spite of all that, I remain immensely grateful that the present government, minus a minister or two, has been in charge throughout this period. Overall I think they have done an outstanding job in view of the complexity of the task and the many layers of organisation involved. I don't believe any conceivable alternative government would have done better, or nearly as well. For me the true test is how we are faring compared to the rest of the world, and unless there is an awful lot of hidden virus in the community, we seem to still be doing pretty well. The demands on everyone involved in this effort, including and maybe especially those at the top, are enormous. Yet those charged with protecting us are out there every day fronting for the media and some not always friendly questioning. They must be getting very tired. I think they do need to be held to account, and their decisions and especially their mistakes questioned in order to keep improving the process, but they are also entitled to a pat on the back for the things they are getting right and the ongoing effort involved in that. I'm sure a few of them would not mind a day or two off and are very much looking forward to the time when that is again possible.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

GV27

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#2544250 19-Aug-2020 09:12

Fred99:

I believe that in NZ, staff at rest-homes work shifts in different facilities.

If true, this is sheer lunacy.

Edit: Here's the article in SMH - he worked at Flemington Markets and a court (not a supermarket).

In a similar vein, I think there were some rostering issues with Covid19 patients transferred into hospitals and nurses being rostered onto Covid19 wards and general wards - I have a feeling it was Waitakere? It seemed hard to believe but there seems to be all these little things which make so little sense once they actually emerge as problems.

Definitely underscores the need for a whole-scale revamp of the pandemic plan - a lot of these procedural changes shouldn't be something we only do once we're in the thick of things.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#2544253 19-Aug-2020 09:16

Fred99:

I believe that in NZ, staff at rest-homes work shifts in different facilities.

I thought that had been acknowledged and was being addressed. I don't have a reference but I think I recall JA saying something about it.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

Fred99

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#2544261 19-Aug-2020 09:38

Rikkitic:

Fred99:

I believe that in NZ, staff at rest-homes work shifts in different facilities.

I thought that had been acknowledged and was being addressed. I don't have a reference but I think I recall JA saying something about it.

Maybe sorted with "care" staff etc - but what about cleaners, cooks, etc.? I don't know - but there'd be consequences for contractors / casual staff. They'd also be the lowest paid, and thus most incentivised to work multiple jobs/shifts.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#2544270 19-Aug-2020 09:46

More indication of the sheer magnitude of the task and the reason why the authorities can't get everything right all at once. It must be like sending people to the moon.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

Fred99

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#2544295 19-Aug-2020 10:29

Rikkitic:

More indication of the sheer magnitude of the task and the reason why the authorities can't get everything right all at once. It must be like sending people to the moon.

They quarantined the crew of the first three landings for 21 days when they returned, just in case of moonvirus. Now we have to deal with moronvirus. What a time to be alive.

GV27

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#2544300 19-Aug-2020 10:57

Rikkitic:

More indication of the sheer magnitude of the task and the reason why the authorities can't get everything right all at once. It must be like sending people to the moon.

I would be more charitable to this way of thinking if they weren't telling us they were getting stuff done that they full-well knew they were not.

Oldmanakbar

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#2544311 19-Aug-2020 11:20

Link to information on where they knew full well they were not?

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#2544313 19-Aug-2020 11:23

GV27:

I would be more charitable to this way of thinking if they weren't telling us they were getting stuff done that they full-well knew they were not.

Can you unambiguously document that? Is there actually an instance where a bald-faced lie was knowingly told? If so, could it be an honest mistake? Is there any possibility that it was done in 'good faith' (i.e., in the genuine belief that doing so best served the public interest)? I know Bloomfield and Hipkins have been wrong or mistaken on some things but were they intentionally lying? Some people (like the opposition) seem very quick to pounce on such instances as evidence of malfeasance, but a more charitable explanation might just be human error.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

GV27

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#2544324 19-Aug-2020 11:38

Rikkitic:

Can you unambiguously document that? Is there actually an instance where a bald-faced lie was knowingly told? If so, could it be an honest mistake? Is there any possibility that it was done in 'good faith' (i.e., in the genuine belief that doing so best served the public interest)? I know Bloomfield and Hipkins have been wrong or mistaken on some things but were they intentionally lying? Some people (like the opposition) seem very quick to pounce on such instances as evidence of malfeasance, but a more charitable explanation might just be human error.

https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20200818_051600000/7-question-no-7-health

Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: Since I became the Minister of Health, and it's been, I think, by my count, roughly seven weeks now, I have been receiving regular updates on the scaling up of testing at the border. I've been receiving that information primarily to inform my Cabinet colleagues each Monday, but also to be prepared for the regular press conferences that I've been doing on Tuesdays and Thursdays, where I've answered extensive questions on the rate of testing at the border.

So either they just weren't paying attention, or they knew and not much was done about it, until someone broke the story?

I'm not buying that you can lay down a policy, get regular briefings and then look to duck and weave when a journalist breaks the story:

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/jacinda-ardern-on-border-testing-shambles-as-nz-may-have-to-adjust-to-a-new-level-1-5/

Ardern did not directly answer why border staff were not being tested regularly, and why this wasn't picked up earlier, even though mobile testing stations had been set up in July.

Ultimately, she said, she needed to ask public health officials on the ground why that was the case.

Accepting these things as 'human error' requires me to overlook how many of the elements of this response only really happened after National starts getting some traction or a journalist writes an article that can't be ignored.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#2544338 19-Aug-2020 12:05

GV27:

So either they just weren't paying attention, or they knew and not much was done about it, until someone broke the story?

I'm not buying that you can lay down a policy, get regular briefings and then look to duck and weave when a journalist breaks the story:

Thank you for taking the trouble to include the transcripts. I was aware of this from the daily updates and it certainly isn't a good look, but I didn't see it as evidence of lying then and I don't now. What it shows is a failure of the system that was in place, probably because people in the chain did not do their job as they were supposed to. My own feeling is that this was allowed to happen until it generated bad publicity because those who should have put an immediate stop to it are just so overloaded by the enormity of the things they are having to juggle. It is like someone trying to plug multiple leaks in a failing dam. Those who do not approve of a Labour-led left-wing government (like Judith Collins) will try to put the worst possible interpretation on this. Those who think the government is actually doing a pretty good job overall (like me) will be more generous. I don't think this should have happened and I do think it is a good thing that critics exposed it to stop it from happening, and I hope they keep looking for other weaknesses for the sake of us all. I still believe the authorities are doing the best they can and I don't believe anyone else would do any better.

Edited to add: I think this kind of thing shows our system is actually working pretty well. Without the opposition and the media to point out these kinds of things, they might be allowed to carry on even longer as authorities are distracted by all the demands on their attention. It is good that someone is checking. I don't particularly like the accusatory style of the opposition or some media in doing this, but it is still worthwhile.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

GV27

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#2544402 19-Aug-2020 12:51

Rikkitic:

Thank you for taking the trouble to include the transcripts. I was aware of this from the daily updates and it certainly isn't a good look, but I didn't see it as evidence of lying then and I don't now. What it shows is a failure of the system that was in place, probably because people in the chain did not do their job as they were supposed to. My own feeling is that this was allowed to happen until it generated bad publicity because those who should have put an immediate stop to it are just so overloaded by the enormity of the things they are having to juggle. It is like someone trying to plug multiple leaks in a failing dam. Those who do not approve of a Labour-led left-wing government (like Judith Collins) will try to put the worst possible interpretation on this. Those who think the government is actually doing a pretty good job overall (like me) will be more generous. I don't think this should have happened and I do think it is a good thing that critics exposed it to stop it from happening, and I hope they keep looking for other weaknesses for the sake of us all. I still believe the authorities are doing the best they can and I don't believe anyone else would do any better.

The problem is the virus doesn't care about whether you're doing a 'pretty good job' or whether you're doing a better job than Schrödinger's National Government that never existed.

If you are making these kind of mistakes, the virus could possibly spread. You can't expect to bask in the praise of having eliminated a virus if that means you're effectively winging it until someone notices you're not doing something or it gets out, which given Ardern's comments about this being a Covid19 election (and given that she suddenly wants people to take the politics out of the Covid response) seemed to be the game-plan.

GV27

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#2544422 19-Aug-2020 13:24

Ardern making the claim that we had 102 days "without community transmission" which we know is now absurd and cannot possibly be true... so why say it?

Oldmanakbar

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#2544423 19-Aug-2020 13:27

Now you are just nitpicking. 102 without any reported and verified community transmission. Is that more accurate.

You know what she meant.

networkn

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#2544424 19-Aug-2020 13:28

GV27:

Ardern making the claim that we had 102 days "without community transmission" which we know is now absurd and cannot possibly be true... so why say it?

Perhaps it "shows is a failure of the system that was in place, probably because people in the chain did not do their job as they were supposed to. My own feeling is that this was allowed to happen until it generated bad publicity because those who should have put an immediate stop to it are just so overloaded by the enormity of the things they are having to juggle."

But absolutely, assuredly, impossibly, it was not Jacinda's or anyone else's fault, in the Government.

Certainly, no-one should be held accountable.

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