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  #2492872 27-May-2020 15:14
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tdgeek:

Handle9:

LOL. It's a pretty easy argument to make and one that the government has no argument for. Basically Twyford and Davis make the argument for the opposition everytime they are in front of the media.


If they remained on the front bench after the election if Labour succeeds, I'd be shocked. Can't see it.



Davis is the deputy leader and is going nowhere. Twyford isn't going anywhere either.

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  #2492883 27-May-2020 15:23
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Handle9:

Davis is the deputy leader and is going nowhere. Twyford isn't going anywhere either.

 

For some reason I took Davis as Clark. I dont see Twyford on the front bench lets see what happens


 
 
 
 


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  #2492903 27-May-2020 15:31
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Rikkitic:

 

Anyone can make a mistake. We learn from experience. What makes you think the other side will do better?

 

 

To me there is substantial dilemma here ..

 

A) Dishonesty: Labour knew they couldn't deliver on a bunch of policies but set them anyway.

 

or

 

B) Incompetence: They wouldn't see how unachievable those policies were (plenty of other people could).

 

or

 

C) Cynicism: They didn't think they would win and were making policy for opposition.

 

Perhaps there is another explanation I can think of right at this moment.  But really ... this govt have delivered on very little of what they campaigned on.  Key indicators were going backwards before COVID.

 

 

 

 





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  #2492906 27-May-2020 15:36
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Rikkitic:

 

GV27:

 

I'm sure we'll see it at some point in the campaign. Quick wits won't help much when you're being asked about transit systems or houses promised and not delivered.

 

 

She will probably say something like 'we stuffed up, next question please'. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Her go to reply is “No, I disagree.”





Areas of Geek interest: Home Theatre, HTPC, Android Tablets & Phones, iProducts.

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  #2492907 27-May-2020 15:37
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tdgeek:

 

Its hard to assess National if they were proactive.

 

 

That's the one thing we can assess them on - they were bloody awful at being proactive! 

 

They did pretty much exactly what Labour had done from 2000 - 2008; take with one hand, give with the other, hope people keep spending because higher house values make them feel rich and open the gates a little more each year to keep the party going. 

 

The problem was National were elected on a platform of sorting out all of those things and did precisely nothing about any of them.

 

I see similar issues for Labour. Going into your first defensive election with a track record of a third term Govt is not an ideal spot, especially with looming economic disaster. 

 

Not a high-trust environment. 


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  #2492913 27-May-2020 15:48
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Rikkitic:

 

But it has also performed flawlessly in the face of extremely difficult challenges on at least two occasions.

 

 

I'd argue that JA has fronted the media almost flawlessly in difficult challenges. It does seem to be her strong suit, though I do find some of her responses to questions are pretty condescending

 

I'd suggest it's likely they handled the lockdown (from a health perspective) reasonably well, I don't think many dispute a lockdown was the right way to go, though the timing is likely to be discussed heavily in the coming months I suspect.

 

The issue is, in my opinion, their day to day running, and ability to deliver on promises has been somewhere between abysmal and below average most of the time. They have spent a *lot* of time tripping over themselves.


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  #2492963 27-May-2020 16:39
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networkn:

Rikkitic:


But it has also performed flawlessly in the face of extremely difficult challenges on at least two occasions.



I'd argue that JA has fronted the media almost flawlessly in difficult challenges. It does seem to be her strong suit, though I do find some of her responses to questions are pretty condescending


I'd suggest it's likely they handled the lockdown (from a health perspective) reasonably well, I don't think many dispute a lockdown was the right way to go, though the timing is likely to be discussed heavily in the coming months I suspect.


The issue is, in my opinion, their day to day running, and ability to deliver on promises has been somewhere between abysmal and below average most of the time. They have spent a *lot* of time tripping over themselves.



You're somewhat overstating the governments issues. There hasn't been any particular issues with their administration running day to day operations compared to previous governments. There have been the usual minor scandals but on the whole nothing unusual. The bureaucracy largely takes care of that.

They have made some minor changes but their issue is delivery of their major policies.

To some extent that should be expected - Labour governments tend to over reach just as National governments tend to lack any sort of imagination. Labour has historically been a party of change and National a party of status quo. Change is always harder to execute than stasis.

The failure of kiwibuild and mass transit to date aren't good but National hasn't presented any sort of alternative. They aren't presenting how they will make the country better, they are just saying they are not Labour.

Whether you like her or not Ardern is this generations preeminent politician. She is far better than anything National has to offer. It's pretty funny watching the right on social media at the moment - they make all the same excuses as the left did during the Key years.

If National want to win they need to beat Ardern. They can't rely on her losing which has been the strategy back to the last election. It failed when they were in power and it will likely fail in opposition.

 
 
 
 


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  #2492972 27-May-2020 16:53
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Handle9:

 

The failure of kiwibuild and mass transit to date aren't good but National hasn't presented any sort of alternative. 

 

 

There's an election campaign to come and policy to be announced.

 

Regardless, you shouldn't get a free pass on delivering flagship campaign policy because the opposition is rubbish. That's not how accountability works. 


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  #2492976 27-May-2020 17:04
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GV27:

 

Handle9:

 

The failure of kiwibuild and mass transit to date aren't good but National hasn't presented any sort of alternative. 

 

 

There's an election campaign to come and policy to be announced.

 

Regardless, you shouldn't get a free pass on delivering flagship campaign policy because the opposition is rubbish. That's not how accountability works. 

 

 

I agree but the responsibility for accountability lies with the opposition. If they aren't good enough bad luck for them. 

 

That's the way the system works for better and worse.


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  #2493017 27-May-2020 17:47
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Rikkitic:

 

I wouldn't argue that the government has displayed some astonishing incompetence since it got elected. But it has also performed flawlessly in the face of extremely difficult challenges on at least two occasions. Anyone who dares attack this government on the basis of competence is in for a very hard time.    

 

 

Christ, that's getting really into Homer Simpson territory. I certainly wouldn't call the government's handling of the COVID-19 crisis flawless. It's been a competent to above average response made to look so much better simply because utter incompetence has become the norm across the globe. The sheer lawlessness of the MoH's behaviour in regards to the exemptions and the government's inability to hold them to account, David Clark's snafu, the ongoing abuse of the OIA/poor information disclosure practices (i.e. the so called "paper dump"), and the sheer unwillingness to strictly enforce the law on some of the egregious breaches of the lockdown rules have been very questionable.  

 

As for the government's general policy execution -- Christ, how can anyone associate, for example, Kiwibuild or the regional development slush fund with any kind of competence? Are they better than National? Sure. But that's just because National's policies and people are currently as desirable as stale and reheated turd.

 

 


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  #2493063 27-May-2020 18:12
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Handle9:

You're somewhat overstating the governments issues. There hasn't been any particular issues with their administration running day to day operations compared to previous governments. There have been the usual minor scandals but on the whole nothing unusual. The bureaucracy largely takes care of that.

They have made some minor changes but their issue is delivery of their major policies.

To some extent that should be expected - Labour governments tend to over reach just as National governments tend to lack any sort of imagination. Labour has historically been a party of change and National a party of status quo. Change is always harder to execute than stasis.

The failure of kiwibuild and mass transit to date aren't good but National hasn't presented any sort of alternative. They aren't presenting how they will make the country better, they are just saying they are not Labour.

Whether you like her or not Ardern is this generations preeminent politician. She is far better than anything National has to offer. It's pretty funny watching the right on social media at the moment - they make all the same excuses as the left did during the Key years.

If National want to win they need to beat Ardern. They can't rely on her losing which has been the strategy back to the last election. It failed when they were in power and it will likely fail in opposition.

 

I feel thats a very good summary. For the vast majority of running the country, they are the same, the budget has vastly more money spent on running the show, than the spare surplus. One side is conservative. Thats not bad. It means they prefer to spend less and sit on their hands. Stable, reliable. The other side is progressive, will change more things to keep up to date. Also not bad. As long as the conservative side keeps us current and doesn't let things get behind, and as long as the progressive side doesnt change for changes sake and throw good money after bad.

 

Labour needs to show it will execute plans or changes. They have made many small changes, and failed on the Kiwibuild and transport. National needs to show it will be safe, but not let things slide such as health, education and transport. National needs to do more, Labour needs to do it better. It easy to say Labour failed on Kiwibuild as one example, but at least they attempted to solve house affordability. Apparently there as no housing crisis?? The failure was that it was too far gone. Im sure they over reached the goals for votes. Thats poor. Its also strategy. People like Twyford make it worse. But National is also part of this game, causing many things to have a need to be fixed. I can't target any things National did to see if they performed well as they didn't really do anything, that's the conservative mode on effect. Which is fine, thats their conservative method. So no blame for lack of implementation as they didnt implement anything. Labour did, and failed for the two flagship policies. Housing and transport. Take the RMA, National has an opportunity but didnt, thanks NZF. Now they blame Labour for RMA. Yes, Labour hasn't attended to it either, so its a 0-0 scoreline

 

From here, now what? Both are at fault as are their own predecesors. National needs to get their hands dirty, Labour needs to use the right tools (people). Where we are right now, policies MUST be part of the election, not National rhetoric and not Labour really cool big number policies, aka Kiwibuild. stuff needs fixing, aka the economy recovery. Conservative won't do, failure to execute also wont do

 

National - new leader, there will be a new direction, will they get dirty hands and pro actively get onto it?

 

Labour - Have they learnt from being a newly led and inexperienced party and start succeeding, using better people? 


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  #2493068 27-May-2020 18:18
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GV27:

 

Handle9:

 

The failure of kiwibuild and mass transit to date aren't good but National hasn't presented any sort of alternative. 

 

 

There's an election campaign to come and policy to be announced.

 

Regardless, you shouldn't get a free pass on delivering flagship campaign policy because the opposition is rubbish. That's not how accountability works. 

 

 

100%. If you always vote one way, forever, I guess it doesnt matter. if you are a swing voter, it does matter, and you need to look at BOTH parties, and not just the last 3 years, you need to look at the past. Who made a difference, who didnt, as where we are now (pre covid) isn't just owned by the incumbent. Its owned by them and the last Government and the previous Government. Cant  blame all of todays issues on the last 30 months. It goes way beyond that. Housing and mass transport isnt a shining light for Labour, thats very clear. Did National do any better? No. We can see who we have now, who might improve, thats the issue


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  #2493070 27-May-2020 18:25
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dejadeadnz:

 

Christ, that's getting really into Homer Simpson territory. I certainly wouldn't call the government's handling of the COVID-19 crisis flawless. It's been a competent to above average response made to look so much better simply because utter incompetence has become the norm across the globe. The sheer lawlessness of the MoH's behaviour in regards to the exemptions and the government's inability to hold them to account, David Clark's snafu, the ongoing abuse of the OIA/poor information disclosure practices (i.e. the so called "paper dump"), and the sheer unwillingness to strictly enforce the law on some of the egregious breaches of the lockdown rules have been very questionable. 

 

 

I think there is a general consensus of opinion, certainly internationally, that the government's response to the Christchurch massacre was fairly faultless if such a term can be used in the context of that terrible tragedy. At least I haven't heard anyone saying how they could have done better. If you know better, feel free to correct me.

 

As far as Covid 19 goes, a comparison between New Zealand and Britain adjusted for population suggests thousands of people here probably owe their lives to the government's actions in this regard. I don't have the actual figures at hand but everything I have seen indicates that we have got away with an unusually low infection and death rate unmatched anywhere else. Surely that suggests that the authorities have done something right?

 

You can whinge all you like about the things they got wrong. I for one am extremely grateful for the things they got right.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #2493073 27-May-2020 18:30
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On a lighter note, it will take Kiwibuild 436 years to complete as per a Stuff article tonight. Year 2456. I guess the latter builds will be quite StarTrekky. But affordable :-)


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  #2493075 27-May-2020 18:33
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Rikkitic:

 

 

 

As far as Covid 19 goes, a comparison between New Zealand and Britain adjusted for population suggests thousands of people here probably owe their lives to the government's actions in this regard. I don't have the actual figures at hand but everything I have seen indicates that we have got away with an unusually low infection and death rate unmatched anywhere else. Surely that suggests that the authorities have done something right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

MF's post here shows that quite nicely

 

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=161&topicid=265423&page_no=669#2493064

 

 


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