Todd Muller to burn Bridges

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Master Geek

#2498811 5-Jun-2020 10:28

tdgeek:

Wait for the policies by all parties to be announced as a first step

These short term policies don't always reveal long term goals.

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tdgeek

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#2498822 5-Jun-2020 10:39

On2or3wheels:

tdgeek:

Wait for the policies by all parties to be announced as a first step

These short term policies don't always reveal long term goals.

Did I say short term? I think you need to take a few steps back, reflect, and wait. See what policies are released, what you think about them, short, medium and long term wise. Can they deliver them? Will they? Can they actually be delivered?

Wait for the policies by all parties to be announced as a first step

BTW most policies are long term, they mostly all have long term effects.

OldGeek

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#2498839 5-Jun-2020 10:58

Rikkitic:

What is the point of policy announcements? They never get implemented.

That's a popular misconception. For the current Government, some Labour policies were either squashed in the coalition agreement with NZF (where specific policies by both parties were agreed on) or squashed when Labour attempted to introduce legislation to the house (eg the CGT).

In the past, when there has been a change of government the incoming party has failed to implement some of their policies, but there are usually good reasons for this and the result has been a triumph of common sense over political ideology. Since WWII, all National governments and 1 Labour government (1985-1990) have served multiple contiguous terms (ie been re-elected at least once) so if policies have not been implemented during the first term in office the we have historically re-elected them to carry on.

The solution to the issues Labour have faced during the current term is for voters to eliminate NZF from Parliament. Party-vote National/ACT or Labour/Greens to get a stable and predictable Government.

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#2498844 5-Jun-2020 11:16

Agree. Policies get passed routinely, big or small, the party in control (usually) has a mandate. Cant see any ratio for NZ but in the US it was around 70% I read years ago, that varied little between Presidents.

A NZF scenario will reduce that somewhat. But it will also add the "bought" polices they had. Some parties may have a propensity to pass more stuff, liberal types, a conservative party will pass less as they allow the market to operate more freely, = less intervention

In the end, yes, they all pass laws and policies, but not all of them

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#2498848 5-Jun-2020 11:22

So NZF was the cause of Kiwibuild being a disaster and the 1B trees and all the other targets they missed? I don't think so. They definitely played a part, and I think mostly, NZ would be better off without NZF, but to blame NZF for most or everything is crazy.

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#2498853 5-Jun-2020 11:37

networkn:

So NZF was the cause of Kiwibuild being a disaster and the 1B trees and all the other targets they missed? I don't think so. They definitely played a part, and I think mostly, NZ would be better off without NZF, but to blame NZF for most or everything is crazy.

Pardon me? I was giving a summary for the new guy, not getting into a bitch fight over politics

The only reference to NZF was A NZF scenario will reduce that somewhat. But it will also add the "bought" polices they had.

NZF, like any coalition partner will reduce laws being passed. You will also get laws being passed based on the coaliton deal. Thats factual and simple

I dont see how that states blame on NZF, nor refers to specifics about Labours policies, that wasnt the point to his query or my post.

My post was to AVOID bitch fights, hence to give him/her a general summary on what he put forward. Maybe I coulda given a link to the "other" thread

OldGeek

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#2498856 5-Jun-2020 11:44

networkn:

So NZF was the cause of Kiwibuild being a disaster and the 1B trees and all the other targets they missed? I don't think so. They definitely played a part, and I think mostly, NZ would be better off without NZF, but to blame NZF for most or everything is crazy.

No - those were Labour policies that failed. NZF though have stymied a CGT and a rollback of the 3 strikes rule. These are examples of Labour policies that NZF was able to block purely because they got a very small percentage of party votes (7.2%) that was crucial to forming the current government. The solution is that NZF are no longer in Parliament. This would require a reduction in NZF's party-vote support to under the 5% threshold. It is up to the other 4 major parties to collectively achieve this.

Edit: correction for clarity

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#2498858 5-Jun-2020 11:50

tdgeek:

Pardon me? I was giving a summary for the new guy, not getting into a bitch fight over politics

Perhaps you could calm down a little? I wasn't starting anything, nor was I addressing you directly or solely. I was simply stating that NZF disappearing will not fix the majority of what went wrong with Labour this term, and magically make everything better if they get elected again.

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#2498861 5-Jun-2020 11:52

OldGeek:

networkn:

So NZF was the cause of Kiwibuild being a disaster and the 1B trees and all the other targets they missed? I don't think so. They definitely played a part, and I think mostly, NZ would be better off without NZF, but to blame NZF for most or everything is crazy.

No - those were Labour policies that failed. NZF though have stymied a CGT and a rollback of the 3 strikes rule. These are examples of Labour policies that NZF has killed off purely because they got a very small percentage of party votes (7.2%) that was crucial to forming the current government. The solution is that NZF are no longer in Parliament. This would require a reduction in NZF's party-vote support to under the 5% threshold. It is up to the other 4 major parties to collectively achieve this.

Yep, and the main issue is the initial point was about passing policies in general as Rikki says none do, and for the benefit of the new poster here, I felt that you and I put forward standard responses to that, for the benefit of the new poster. Then it goes back to the same old thing. There is another thread to argue

When its the 2066 election, Im sure all of us in our rocking chairs will be talking Kiwibuild :-) But for this particular set of post it was a different topic, for the benefit a new user. Oh well.

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#2498863 5-Jun-2020 11:56

networkn:

Perhaps you could calm down a little? I wasn't starting anything, nor was I addressing you directly or solely. I was simply stating that NZF disappearing will not fix the majority of what went wrong with Labour this term, and magically make everything better if they get elected again.

Im calm, but thanks for asking. Maybe you could reply to the points being raised intead of creating a point out of thin air so you can criticise it

GV27

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#2498990 5-Jun-2020 13:27

The thing is Labour was only ever going to govern with NZ First. It's not good enough for them to say "our coalition partner stopped us from doing this" when they were always going to be a coalition partner. There simply wasn't going to be a Labour government without NZ First.

The idea that you can promise whatever the hell you want, regardless of it being something you can actually implement in government, significantly undermines the public's ability to cast an informed vote. Sure, it's happened before, but 2017 was particular egregious given what was promised, the timelines for it and how quickly those same policies were abandoned.

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#2499001 5-Jun-2020 13:35

GV27:

The thing is Labour was only ever going to govern with NZ First. It's not good enough for them to say "our coalition partner stopped us from doing this" when they were always going to be a coalition partner. There simply wasn't going to be a Labour government without NZ First.

The idea that you can promise whatever the hell you want, regardless of it being something you can actually implement in government, significantly undermines the public's ability to cast an informed vote. Sure, it's happened before, but 2017 was particular egregious given what was promised, the timelines for it and how quickly those same policies were abandoned.

100%. But that wasnt what we were talking about. We were talking about, from a new poster here, general stuff. A comment came up that parties dont ever put policies in place, to which general comments were made re policy passing, the big guy suggetsed NZF need to go, then a wild tangent as if we were discussing blaming NZF for Labours woes. Crazy.

MikeAqua

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#2500410 8-Jun-2020 11:16

GV27:

The idea that you can promise whatever the hell you want, regardless of it being something you can actually implement in government, significantly undermines the public's ability to cast an informed vote. Sure, it's happened before, but 2017 was particular egregious given what was promised, the timelines for it and how quickly those same policies were abandoned.

I agree, and I find it difficult to believe they didn't know many of their promises were unachievable.

If feel sorry for Michael Cullen. His tax review has turned into his Magnus Opus and it's a damp squib.

Mike

networkn

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#2500411 8-Jun-2020 11:24

tdgeek:

100%. But that wasnt what we were talking about. We were talking about, from a new poster here, general stuff. A comment came up that parties dont ever put policies in place, to which general comments were made re policy passing, the big guy suggetsed NZF need to go, then a wild tangent as if we were discussing blaming NZF for Labours woes. Crazy.

It was actually oldgeek that referenced NZF being removed. I simply suggested that wouldn't magically fix anything.

Are we going to be name-calling as well now?

Oldgeek

The solution to the issues Labour have faced during the current term is for voters to eliminate NZF from Parliament. Party-vote National/ACT or Labour/Greens to get a stable and predictable Government.

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#2500468 8-Jun-2020 11:39

networkn:

It was actually oldgeek that referenced NZF being removed. I simply suggested that wouldn't magically fix anything.

Are we going to be name-calling as well now?

No. Not me anyway. You've missed the point, and thats all good. Its a new week, time to move on

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