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  #2508318 19-Jun-2020 18:24
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If they are "left to their own devices" and get a "slap on the hand" then why has the number of people in prison doubled in the last 20 years? Normalised by population there are 50% more people locked up than in 2000.

In the aggregate (rather than picking edge cases) New Zealand locks up a huge proportion of its population. How is that working out? There is no evidence that it works.

 

 

 

On the other hand, is there evidence that crime drops if we don't lock them up? 


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  #2508328 19-Jun-2020 18:48
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gmball:

 

On the other hand, is there evidence that crime drops if we don't lock them up? 

 

 

You're asking the wrong question. It costs around 110K a year to incarcerate an inmate. Incarcerated inmates re-offend at a very high rate and a lot of incarcerated inmates suffer from things like undiagnosed mental illnesses, foetal alcohol syndrome, and the like that severely affect their impulse control, judgement, ability to reason, and to control anger. Thus the idea that slapping on ever longer jail sentences will somehow motivate these people to make better decisions is just fantasy stuff believed by the unthinking or voluntarily gullible.

 

As an ex-prosecutor, I can safely tell you that most people who still do it mainly do it because someone has to or because under our basically privatised system of Crown prosecutions, "Crown" solicitors know that the government always pays and it's a good deal. Very few people (except for the rabidly right wing) genuinely believe that the law and order system is effective. I come from a well-to-do family where, apart from my parents, everyone on both sides of the fence subscribed to the usual hard right horse manure that everyone is equal and everyone has the same chance in life. Having actually worked within disadvantaged communities, I know this is again but a fantasy. It's to my personal advantage (were it all about me) that people keep subscribing to such fantasies but as the ex-Chief of the Camden PD in the States (one of the few genuinely useful and reform-minded PDs in the States) once said, nothing stops a bullet like a job. And many people don't have much in way of serious opportunities in life in NZ. Spend some money and effort in fixing that and we'll get way further than howling in outrage and baying for blood after someone is dead.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #2508332 19-Jun-2020 18:55
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gmball:



If they are "left to their own devices" and get a "slap on the hand" then why has the number of people in prison doubled in the last 20 years? Normalised by population there are 50% more people locked up than in 2000.

In the aggregate (rather than picking edge cases) New Zealand locks up a huge proportion of its population. How is that working out? There is no evidence that it works.


 


On the other hand, is there evidence that crime drops if we don't lock them up? 



There is ample empirical evidence that a different approach works, particularly with drug offences.

There's obviously a massive financial incentive to stop locking people up as well.

At that point the only reason to lock people up more is to be "tough on crime" or for revenge.

There is a percentage of deviants who will always need to be in prison. The point of the justice system is to let the rest of the population live a safe and comfortable life. It's not capable of anything more than that.

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  #2508339 19-Jun-2020 19:06
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dejadeadnz:

People need to guard against the disgusting law and order types trying to run a reductionist Blue Lives Matter campaign on the back of this kind of incident. Nor should scrutiny of police conduct or policies be reduced as a result. For example, where's the similar howling outrage when innocent bystanders are killed during police chases? Multiple Australian states have banned chases of alleged offenders except for all by the most exceptional cases. 



I wrote a long reply to this but have decided to delete it so I don't get banned.

Edit: Deleted the rest you're not worth it.




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  #2508341 19-Jun-2020 19:13
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Handle9: At that point the only reason to lock people up more is to be "tough on crime" or for revenge.

 

There's another one -- I am certainly not saying it's a noble purpose but it's certainly very important to a lot of people. The social need to show some kind of moral superiority by "othering" the deviants and to reinforce some sort of notion that they are scum.


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  #2508348 19-Jun-2020 19:27
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Dingbatt:

I wrote a long reply to this but have decided to delete it so I don't get banned.

Edit: Deleted the rest you're not worth it.

 

I will do it for you, bro. I have no idea about policing (despite having done far more work in the criminal justice area than most people on here ever have or will); I am a judgmental **** who sits on my arm chair and judges people making split second decision, whilst spending all my time defending scum and villains of all sizes. Funny how a lot of most posts on these topics are backed up by independent reports like IPCA reports and the like.

 

Feel free to make me the villain if it makes you feel better.

 

Warmest regards and have a great weekend!

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  #2508367 19-Jun-2020 20:17
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dejadeadnz:

Dingbatt:

I wrote a long reply to this but have decided to delete it so I don't get banned.

Edit: Deleted the rest you're not worth it.


I will do it for you, bro.............deleted..........

 


Firstly, I am not your bro'
I edited your quote to leave in everything that you wrote that you assumed I included in my post before I edited it. (ie none of it)
I guess you've done your fair share of soul searching on any number things that have occurred in your career. I can't help you with your shoulder chip. But your initial post that attacked the police is a dick move regardless of your experience with some police in the past.
The ultimate test of how brave a keyboard warrior you are is Would you be willing to print your post out and stand by it in public? Possibly outside the Henderson Police Station........
If you are a victim of crime in the future feel free to not call the police.




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  #2508370 19-Jun-2020 20:26
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Dingbatt:
The ultimate test of how brave a keyboard warrior you are is Would you be willing to print your post out and stand by it in public? Possibly outside the Henderson Police Station........
If you are a victim of crime in the future feel free to not call the police.

 

So, you're relying on the Thug's Veto to win an argument? Sorry but this isn't the primary school playground and, even if it is, that argument shouldn't be acceptable to anyone older than 6.

 

The police get paid to investigate and prevent crime. What does any of this have to do with what is being debated here? Try and actually form a coherent argument instead of just rage-banging on the keyboard.

 

 


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  #2508476 19-Jun-2020 21:07
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Okay I cede to your huge intellect and moral superiority. Perhaps you hit a raw nerve because I am affected by today's events.
Maybe you could consider that before you post some of your comments.




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  #2508482 19-Jun-2020 21:30
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It is quiet this evening in Massey. Very little traffic or noise. No parties in our street. Not a huge police presence.

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  #2508485 19-Jun-2020 21:35
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Some people really dislike each other just because of opinions...





 

 

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  #2508491 19-Jun-2020 21:44
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Media release tonight from Police

Attribute to Commissioner of Police Andrew Coster:

Police investigating the fatal shooting of a Police officer in Massey have charged a man with Murder.

A 24-year-old man has been arrested and charged with multiple serious offences including Murder, Attempted Murder and Dangerous Driving Causing Injury.

He will be appearing in the Waitakere District Court tomorrow.

The investigation into this incident is ongoing and Police are not able to rule out the possibility of further persons being charged.

Our thoughts are with the family of the slain Police officer and we are continuing to ensure they are provided with all possible support.

The other injured Police officer and member of public remain in hospital in a serious but stable condition and we are also supporting them and their families.

Police will not be in a position to confirm the identity of the Police officer until tomorrow at the earliest.

ENDS

Issued by Police Media Centre




Keep calm, and carry on posting.

 

 

 

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  #2508554 20-Jun-2020 08:00
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freitasm:

Some people really dislike each other just because of opinions...


Now I have had a chance to get some sleep after yesterday's events I would like to post the comment I removed yesterday in response to the post implying that police offiicer's lives dont matter. Mods feel free to delete if inappropriate (or edit).
It was not, as arrogantly assumed, an attack on lawyers, although the level of self loathing apparent in what the poster wrote in reply about perceptions of lawyers may need to be looked at and lanced before it bursts.

It was about the following.

Imagine that your loved one left home at 6am yesterday morning for their shift as a police officer in West Auckland. At morning tea time you see 3 AOS response vehicles virtually in convoy with multiple ambulances and patrol cars with lights and sirens on, heading for Massey, where the Eagle helicopter is already circling.
News reports of an 'incident ' where a police officer has been injured.
Then, that 2 officers have been shot and a bystander seriously injured.
Followed by a report an officer has died.
So you wait, hoping not to see a police car pull into your driveway.
Eventually you get a call from your loved one that they are okay but really busy and will be late home. Relief washes over you until you realise that others have gone through the same anguish that you just have, but the news is much more tragic.

And then you read a post implying blue (police) lives don't matter.....




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  #2508562 20-Jun-2020 08:16
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I read the whole thread again and I don't see a comment saying police lives don't matter. The closest I saw that could be understood as such is the first comment saying some people use police lives matter arguments to increase calls for gun policing. Or is your post regarding something else?





 

 

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  #2508569 20-Jun-2020 09:03
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Dingbatt:

Imagine that your loved one left home at 6am yesterday morning for their shift as a police officer in West Auckland. At morning tea time you see 3 AOS response vehicles virtually in convoy with multiple ambulances and patrol cars with lights and sirens on, heading for Massey, where the Eagle helicopter is already circling.
News reports of an 'incident ' where a police officer has been injured.
Then, that 2 officers have been shot and a bystander seriously injured.
Followed by a report an officer has died.
So you wait, hoping not to see a police car pull into your driveway.
Eventually you get a call from your loved one that they are okay but really busy and will be late home. Relief washes over you until you realise that others have gone through the same anguish that you just have, but the news is much more tragic.

And then you read a post implying blue (police) lives don't matter.....

 

Sorry but society just shouldn't make public policy on account of one side and their loved ones' interest or emotive responses to events. I simply don't accept that having an emotional stake in events entitle anyone to some kind of absolute deference -- at the start of the pandemic, I actually contemplated that my wife (an ER doctor) could realistically get very ill or worse from treating COVID cases. At some point, we both realised that this is part of the job and you make peace with it. We rightly expect her employer do do all things reasonably practicable to protect her and her colleagues but are entitled to no more.

 

You seem obsessed with taking potshots at me but I stand by what I said one p.1: it's absolute nonsense that the lives of police officers matter more than those of members of the public and the presumed-innocent-until-proven-guilty suspects. Notice how those words that match up to police lives don't matter? But experience from overseas and even locally in the past have indeed show people that some people do indeed quickly crawl out of the woodwork suggesting general arming of the police, which will indisputably lead to more firearm discharges by and at the police. Also there will be people peddling nonsense like heavily increasing jail sentences, which have no proven general and specific deterrent effects prior to criminals acting. And I maintain we need to guard against these things.

 

You are entitled to like or dislike such opinions but quit with the pop psychology and personal digs.

 

 


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