Nope to dope or toot toot?

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13684 posts

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#2571947 22-Sep-2020 12:54

sen8or:

Such a complex issue

No it's not.

It's a dead simple issue - continue to support a hopeless failed policy of prohibition that's caused untold harm globally, or vote to change it.

Rikkitic

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#2571958 22-Sep-2020 13:02

I am strongly in favour of legalising cannabis. My reasons mainly have to do with social justice. I believe keeping it illegal does more harm than good. I don't know if legalising it would redirect police resources in any meaningful way, or undercut gangs, but I don't believe it would make things worse, and at least some things it would make better. People should not go to jail (and be given criminal records) merely for possessing or using it, especially as the justice system discriminates against Maori. No useful purpose is served by this. All it does is ruin lives. Of course if someone is a punishment type, they may feel those lives deserve to be ruined. I don't agree. Not for something like this.

Studies indicate that Kiwis are already huge consumers of weed. Any problems it causes are already with us. Legalising it won't make any of that worse.

Legal weed does not appear to have destroyed Canadian society, or Washington State, or Colorado, or Peru (or the Australian Capital Territory!). Rather than start from our own personal prejudices, we should look to experiences elsewhere that we can compare ourselves to. There are now a couple dozen countries where cannabis is legal or decriminalised. About half of American states are the same. I come from Holland, where it has been effectively (if not technically) legal for many years. Our society has not collapsed and our young people are pretty much the same as young people anywhere else. Quote from Financial Times: 'In 2008, a data analysis led by Louisa Degenhardt of the National Drug & Alcohol Research Centre at Australia’s University of New South Wales found that “[lifetime] cannabis use in the US and New Zealand (both 42 per cent) was far higher than in any other country”. The Dutch figure was 20 per cent (higher than for most European countries).'

I have also seen studies that show pot usage actually declining amongst young people after it is legalised. I won't include a lot of links here, but anyone who is genuinely interested can find plenty on Google. The above actually suggests that the more illegal it is, the more people use it. That is worth pondering.

If you have already made up your mind and just want to find 'facts' that reflect what you believe, the Internet will serve you. But if you are willing to keep an open mind and consider real information that has been objectively obtained, you might learn something new. Here are a few random links I picked up from a quick search. The study of New Zealand is especially interesting. Some of it does not support things I thought were true, but I am happy to let that stand because the study strikes me as comprehensive and impartial and nothing it concludes stands in the way of legalisation.

https://www.ft.com/content/f9d61f58-d78c-11e8-ab8e-6be0dcf18713

https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nation/states-that-legalized-weed-marijuana-laws

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/14/legal-marijuana-medical-use-crime-rate-plummets-us-study

https://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/journals-and-magazines/social-policy-journal/spj18/cannabis-black-market18-pages31-43.html

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

floydbloke

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#2571962 22-Sep-2020 13:03

sen8or:

...

Such a complex issue

Totally agree. Particularly when opinions are being voiced as facts.

Still haven't 100% made up my mind which way I'm going to go.

Thanks for explaining "plethora".

It means a lot.

Fred99

13684 posts

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#2571977 22-Sep-2020 13:17

floydbloke:

sen8or:

...

Such a complex issue

Totally agree. Particularly when opinions are being voiced as facts.

Still haven't 100% made up my mind which way I'm going to go.

It's not a complex issue, and if you haven't made up your mind by now either way, then don't vote.

You're going to be bombarded by fake facts for the next few weeks - making a rational decision based on polarised BS is not a good way to go.

This issue should never have gone to referendum - idiots are setting the dialogue. And yes - from both sides.

dejadeadnz

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#2572017 22-Sep-2020 13:51

Rikkitic:

I am strongly in favour of legalising cannabis. My reasons mainly have to do with social justice. I believe keeping it illegal does more harm than good. I don't know if legalising it would redirect police resources in any meaningful way, or undercut gangs, but I don't believe it would make things worse, and at least some things it would make better. People should not go to jail (and be given criminal records) merely for possessing or using it, especially as the justice system discriminates against Maori. No useful purpose is served by this. All it does is ruin lives. Of course if someone is a punishment type, they may feel those lives deserve to be ruined. I don't agree. Not for something like this.

These are the sorts of posts that we need more of and not people simply hectoring that X, Y or Z position is obvious or simple competitions of one-liners. Good on you for doing your own research using (on their face) excellent sources.

sen8or

1778 posts

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#2572030 22-Sep-2020 14:01

I agree we are going to be bombarded with "fake facts" over the coming weeks and both sides will be piloting the bombers!

MikeAqua

7769 posts

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#2572198 22-Sep-2020 15:55

Fred99:

It's not a complex issue, and if you haven't made up your mind by now either way, then don't vote.

You're going to be bombarded by fake facts for the next few weeks - making a rational decision based on polarised BS is not a good way to go.

This issue should never have gone to referendum - idiots are setting the dialogue. And yes - from both sides.

Stop beating around the bush Fred - tell us what you really think!

Mike

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Handle9

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#2572201 22-Sep-2020 16:12

floydbloke:

sen8or:

...

Such a complex issue

Totally agree. Particularly when opinions are being voiced as facts.

Still haven't 100% made up my mind which way I'm going to go.

I do agree that there is significant complexity. There are no "good" or easy choices.

What is being done now doesn't work, and produces some really horrific outcomes for some people. The statistics around arrests are really telling, particularly around ethnicity and how our system treats different groups.

The alternatives will also cause significant harm to some people. It's not a simple issue.

mm1352000

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#2572207 22-Sep-2020 16:25

Question for those of you advocating for legalisation: why legalisation instead of decriminalisation?

I'm leaning towards voting no because at this point I think I'd prefer decriminalisation over legalisation, but the current bill is for legalisation.

Oldmanakbar

110 posts

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#2572224 22-Sep-2020 17:36

mm1352000:
Question for those of you advocating for legalisation: why legalisation instead of decriminalisation?

I'm leaning towards voting no because at this point I think I'd prefer decriminalisation over legalisation, but the current bill is for legalisation.

Weed for most of the population is basically decriminalized now with how the police handle day to day users.

Legalization allows for the consumption of a product from known sources, quality control and taxation to offset the social harm aspect.

Not to mention removing some of the stigma and fear if you want to grow a plant or two.

For the record I do not currently partake, and I still think its a good idea.

How it is any different than buying a bottle of vodka or doing home-brew beer is beyond me.

If one is socially acceptable then this should be as well.

Handle9

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#2572366 22-Sep-2020 20:30

Oldmanakbar:
mm1352000:

Question for those of you advocating for legalisation: why legalisation instead of decriminalisation?

I'm leaning towards voting no because at this point I think I'd prefer decriminalisation over legalisation, but the current bill is for legalisation.

Weed for most of the population is basically decriminalized now with how the police handle day to day users. Legalization allows for the consumption of a product from known sources, quality control and taxation to offset the social harm aspect. Not to mention removing some of the stigma and fear if you want to grow a plant or two. For the record I do not currently partake, and I still think its a good idea. How it is any different than buying a bottle of vodka or doing home-brew beer is beyond me. If one is socially acceptable then this should be as well.

I don't agree with the alcohol equivalence argument. Just because one or two harmful drugs are legal I don't agree that all others should be - if it creates substantially more harm (than them remaining illegal) to legalise other drugs I don't think that should happen. I am not convinced that legalisation will create substantially more harm.

For me decriminalisation vs legalisation is around minimising harm. Legalisation means the supply chain can be regulated and controlled. Decriminalisation means that the existing problems around the illegal supply chain remain.

Oldmanakbar

110 posts

Master Geek

#2572377 22-Sep-2020 20:42

It would be an interesting experiment to see how people who are staunch no voters would vote in a referendum to make Booze illegal.

And the reasoning behind it.

I have no problem with comparing the two and the harm they do and could do. Alcohols downsides and the harm it does is very well documented and understood, yet we allow it.

Some, myself included, would argue it is very evident which one is worse.

Handle9

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#2572389 22-Sep-2020 21:08

I agree that alcohol is worse but IMO that's irrelevant to this debate. Nothing is being proposed to change with alcohol and if it did then it would likely cause a change in government due to massive unpopularity. The comparisons are purely hypothetical.

A far more relevant comparison is what happened with synthetic cannabis reform, which was an unmitigated disaster. There are a lot of reasons for that mess, and I think this legislation has tried to avoid many of them, but what happened there was awful.

For me the question is whether this change on it's own is a good thing or a bad thing. That's what is being voted on, not whether cannabis or alcohol are worse than each other.

dejadeadnz

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#2572416 22-Sep-2020 21:40

If this was about decriminalisation, I would vote yes in a heartbeat. But currently inclined to vote no.

sen8or

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#2572509 23-Sep-2020 08:47

Oldmanakbar:

It would be an interesting experiment to see how people who are staunch no voters would vote in a referendum to make Booze illegal.

And the reasoning behind it.

I have no problem with comparing the two and the harm they do and could do. Alcohols downsides and the harm it does is very well documented and understood, yet we allow it.

Some, myself included, would argue it is very evident which one is worse.

the significant difference is that alcohol is currently legal, you would be trying to take away something that people are currently legally allowed to do, dope isnt. I suspect this was part of the issue of prohibition in the 1930s US, taking away something that people are (were) legally allowed to do is far harder than disallowing it to begin with (just look at the uproar whan the Govt proposes to lower a speed limit on the road, or lower drink driving limits etc etc)

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