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dejadeadnz
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  #2572767 23-Sep-2020 13:18
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🤣

 

What works is trickle up economics!! Vote National!

 

:D


antonknee
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  #2572770 23-Sep-2020 13:20
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Fred99:

Best quote from the debate? :



Some of those people getting these tax cuts are the ones losing their jobs



Hard to invent a more stupid comment if you tried.


 


 



Was a stupid comment from Collins and shows how clueless she really is. Between that and her quip about the tax cuts targeting the middle earner on $64k. The median wage is not even close to $64k, and even if it was, the greatest cut is given to those earning well in excess of $64k.




Ant  Reformed geek | Referral links: Electric Kiwi  Sharesies  Stake


 
 
 
 


MikeAqua
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  #2572777 23-Sep-2020 13:40
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PAYE tax cuts are good for wage/salary earners.  What National are effectively talking about is moving the thresholds, rather than the rates.  I would be thousands per year better off under National than Labour.  I think trickle down creates jobs, but they jobs that support consumer spending  and tend to be low paying - e.g. hospitality, travel or retail.

 

The debate: Ardern didn't seem on form with her comms, seemed to be trying to come off as stateswoman-like.  It didn't work.  She was a bit waffly and prone to govt-speak jargon.

 

She seems to do better when she is steering the narrative - for example her daily thing during lockdown.   If a reporter asks her a difficult question she launches into waffle about something vaguely related, but doesn't answer.  That's a passable tactic during a stand-up interview.  In a debate it comes across very very obviously as dodging questions.  

 

Collins came across as energized, enjoying herself and IMO, the better debater. Some have said smug, I didn't personally see it that way.

 

Ardern looked very jaded.  Incidentally, Bloomfield looked the same on TV this morning.  I imagine both have been through the wringer over this Auckland MIQ failure cluster.

 

The AM show were quoting some stat this morning that 54% of viewers gave the debate to Collins.  I haven't bothered to check for the source.  Such a slim margin is a draw, which favours the incumbent.

 

 

 

 





Mike


MikeAqua
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  #2572779 23-Sep-2020 13:43
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antonknee:
 the greatest cut is given to those earning well in excess of $64k.

 

That's inevitable as those are the people paying the most tax.

 

If you earn under $100k and pay PAYE, you are a net taker of tax.





Mike


Handle9
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  #2572969 23-Sep-2020 16:31
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MikeAqua:

 

antonknee:
 the greatest cut is given to those earning well in excess of $64k.

 

That's inevitable as those are the people paying the most tax.

 

If you earn under $100k and pay PAYE, you are a net taker of tax.

 

 

I don't believe you are correct, at least as you wrote it, but would be interested to see your reference.


nova
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  #2573109 23-Sep-2020 22:16
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MikeAqua:

 

That's inevitable as those are the people paying the most tax.

 

If you earn under $100k and pay PAYE, you are a net taker of tax.

 

 

I think $100k is higher than the truth, but it all depends on how you spin the figures. If you just look purely in terms on income tax, the figures from treasury are here:

 

https://www.treasury.govt.nz/information-and-services/financial-management-and-advice/revenue-expenditure/revenue-effects-tax-changes/who-pays-income-tax

 

Based on this, 3.8 million tax payers contribute $36.8 billion in income tax that supports 5 million New Zealanders. If each individual got an equal share of the services, then it would be $7,360 each,and anyone earning more than $48K is a net tax payer.

 

Now of course there are other taxes (GST, petrol tax etc), but once you consider that then you need to take an individual view. It is entirely possible that someone on 90K with 4 kids at school pays less tax than they get back and someone on 50 K with no kids pays more tax than they get back in services.


webwat
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  #2573121 23-Sep-2020 23:04
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Oldmanakbar:

 

I found Judtih Collins to be...smug, that's all I was thinking the whole time.

 

Not sure why she had that little grin on her face the whole time. I definitely think Adern could've done better and was way too polite in the face of the constant interruptions.

 

 

 

And yeah, that wasn't moderated at all.

 

 

I'm pretty sure they coached her to smile more since her usual scowl is such a turn off. The makeover also makes her look much less of a battle axe, but that can only go so far. Her attempt at a natural looking grin was sooo scary! Leave the stupid grin to Jacinda darling...





Time to find a new industry!


 
 
 
 


GV27
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  #2573152 24-Sep-2020 06:45
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The oft-quoted 'who pays what' was covered during the TWG aftermath:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/114628351/an-inconvenient-truth-about-tax-in-new-zealand

 

 


Handle9
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  #2573161 24-Sep-2020 07:17
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That's a fairly slanted article. It totally ignores GST. The implications of basically spending 100% of your income to survive, and returning 15% as tax, are ignored and then saying that untaxed capital gains are modest is really poor.

He really did lose me when he said nz had a very progressive tax system. That is demonstrably untrue, even compared to Australia. There was also no mention of people who have no kids and their net tax burden.

It's a complex topic but it shouldn't be discussed by cherry picking bits and not looking at tax as a whole.

Fred99
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  #2573163 24-Sep-2020 07:29
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Dame Anne Salmond's opinion on the debate.  

 


Fred99
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  #2573166 24-Sep-2020 07:54
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Tax system needs to be overhauled globally.  

 

The concept that the poor pay less in tax than the rich as a % of gross income isn't much use in a modern world where there's no zero cost of living - you have to pay money to stay alive, it's not as if you can lay claim to an acre of land, grow some wheat, build a hut with your bare hands, forage and go fishing to provide for a family.

 

Only disposable income after basic living costs should be taxed.

 

Billionaires need to be taxed out of existence, you can forget the concept that they'll all behave like Bill Gates and return all their wealth to society through charitable work.  Most won't.  Greed got them where they are.  We're heading to oligarchy / a kind of neo-feudalist society. 

 

Oxfam report that the "one percent" generate double the carbon emission of the poorest 50% of people on the planet.  That's incredibly stupid.  If you criticise behaviour of someone flying around in a private jet and holidaying in their 300 foot small ocean liner, then that's "envy" apparently - as that's what we all want/aspire to.  Not me, I'd tax them out of existence, they don't any good for the future of humanity.


GV27
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  #2573169 24-Sep-2020 08:02
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Handle9: That's a fairly slanted article. It totally ignores GST. The implications of basically spending 100% of your income to survive, and returning 15% as tax, are ignored and then saying that untaxed capital gains are modest is really poor.

 

Do you mean this bit:

 

For those in that group already paying material personal tax while deriving relatively modest untaxed capital gains, they are already the highest taxed on their economic income. For those whose untaxed capital gains are material, then it's accepted that some of their economic income remains untaxed. But capital gains tax has been fought and lost many times in New Zealand, and taxing their (and everyone else's) personal income more as a substitute is so untargeted as to be no more than a soundbite.

 

I'm not seeing him say untaxed capital gains are modest as a whole - he's saying that if you are mostly incurring PAYE on a higher salary/wage then your income is being mostly captured at a higher rate, as opposed to someone with a lower salary but who is benefiting from a higher amount of untaxed gain. I'm not seeing how that is hugely controversial. 


GV27
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  #2573170 24-Sep-2020 08:08
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Fred99:

 

Oxfam report that the "one percent" generate double the carbon emission of the poorest 50% of people on the planet.  That's incredibly stupid.  If you criticise behaviour of someone flying around in a private jet and holidaying in their 300 foot small ocean liner, then that's "envy" apparently - as that's what we all want/aspire to.  Not me, I'd tax them out of existence, they don't any good for the future of humanity.

 

 

I went googling out of curiosity - the 'one percent' is apparently a net worth of over $870K USD. 

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/01/how-much-money-you-need-to-be-part-of-the-1-percent-worldwide.html

 

$1.3m NZD, give or take. The average Auckland house price $950,000. Hard to believe you could be a 1%er just by owning central Auckland property for 30 years and selling debt-free, without even a Lear Jet or Superyacht to show for it. 

 

Seriously though it costs way to much to live in this country. I'd back wholesale housing reform if there was some carveout for people like me who bought modest first homes who would almost certainly be facing negative equity in the event of a decent correction.


Fred99
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  #2573219 24-Sep-2020 08:34
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GV27:

 

I'd back wholesale housing reform if there was some carveout for people like me who bought modest first homes who would almost certainly be facing negative equity in the event of a decent correction.

 

 

Well there's been "regulatory capture" on the housing market for decades, and not just in NZ.  You can thank the policies of Labour and National here for not "nipping it in the bud".  Now we're left with the result - "too big to (be allowed to) fail".  So whoever wins the election, your equity will be preserved at all costs. It's a tragedy of the commons. 


GV27
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  #2573226 24-Sep-2020 08:45
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Fred99:

 

GV27:

 

I'd back wholesale housing reform if there was some carveout for people like me who bought modest first homes who would almost certainly be facing negative equity in the event of a decent correction.

 

 

Well there's been "regulatory capture" on the housing market for decades, and not just in NZ.  You can thank the policies of Labour and National here for not "nipping it in the bud".  Now we're left with the result - "too big to (be allowed to) fail".  So whoever wins the election, your equity will be preserved at all costs. It's a tragedy of the commons. 

 

 

It's even more tragic when you compare what half the average house price gets you somewhere like Queensland, in a country with higher wages and lower living costs. Like you say, we've totally normalised this and there's no politically convenient way to get out of it.


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