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sen8or
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  #2580472 7-Oct-2020 08:52
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GV27:

 

Handle9:

 

Has there ever been a labour leader you liked. I'm asking for a friend 😉

 

I still prefer Clark to Ardern. You couldn't say there was much false empathy going on there. Frankly I find Ardern infuriating to listen to in debates - the number of times she'll talk about what she has done to avoid directly addressing what she hasn't done is maddening for anyone trying to get something out of it. In a properly moderated debate, she'd be pulled up on it until she actually addressed it. 

 

 

 

 

I would have thought the conversation on things she has done would be too short to fill a timeslot in a debate?


GV27
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  #2580813 7-Oct-2020 18:54
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Another reason last night didn't work:

 

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2020/08/election-2020-the-whole-truth/#/1193789340/ardern-overreached-by-rejecting-border-failure

 

This sort of analysis - when it's so painfully obvious that it doesn't make any sense - is exactly the sort of thing that a moderator should be pulling people up on during the debate itself. The crowd wasn't having a bar of Judith's ranting, and rightly so, but this level of denial should have been called out for what it was at the time, but I have a feeling Ardern was able to coast on it without getting the same level of attention at the time.

 

Unfortunately Collins is her own worst enemy because the sheer volume of bizarre things she says gets more attention (many of which were outright wrong, others were a coin-toss at best), but that doesn't mean that this kind of clanger should just be forgotten about. Whoever made the better fist of it is decided on the night, not 24 hours later when your outlet finally get around to actually scrutinising what people have actually said in your own debate.


 
 
 
 


Handle9
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  #2580872 7-Oct-2020 19:24
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GV27:

 

Another reason last night didn't work:

 

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2020/08/election-2020-the-whole-truth/#/1193789340/ardern-overreached-by-rejecting-border-failure

 

This sort of analysis - when it's so painfully obvious that it doesn't make any sense - is exactly the sort of thing that a moderator should be pulling people up on during the debate itself. The crowd wasn't having a bar of Judith's ranting, and rightly so, but this level of denial should have been called out for what it was at the time, but I have a feeling Ardern was able to coast on it without getting the same level of attention at the time.

 

Unfortunately Collins is her own worst enemy because the sheer volume of bizarre things she says gets more attention (many of which were outright wrong, others were a coin-toss at best), but that doesn't mean that this kind of clanger should just be forgotten about. Whoever made the better fist of it is decided on the night, not 24 hours later when your outlet finally get around to actually scrutinising what people have actually said in your own debate.

 

 

The moderators fully fact checking in real time is almost entirely impractical. Also it is a debate - both sides will present the facts in a way that is slanted to their positions, not in an impartial way.

 

Getting them to directly address questions and not talk over each other is all that can be reasonably expected.

 

In the end these things are more about entertainment and personality than they are about policy. Seeing the leaders under pressure can be quite revealing but can also show nothing much. Most of the time debates don't move the needle, these ones certainly haven't.


GV27
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  #2580925 7-Oct-2020 21:20
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Handle9:

 

The moderators fully fact checking in real time is almost entirely impractical. Also it is a debate - both sides will present the facts in a way that is slanted to their positions, not in an impartial way.

 

Getting them to directly address questions and not talk over each other is all that can be reasonably expected.

 

 

Exactly, but other moderators have been able to press leaders who make such patently ridiculous claims before - Gower was particularly harsh on Ardern for vague answers in the TV3 debate. Not doing it at all just has the predictable outcome of increasingly levels of questionable claims and raising the angst of all parties. The only people who end up losing out are us.


Handle9
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  #2580929 7-Oct-2020 21:27
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GV27:

 

Handle9:

 

The moderators fully fact checking in real time is almost entirely impractical. Also it is a debate - both sides will present the facts in a way that is slanted to their positions, not in an impartial way.

 

Getting them to directly address questions and not talk over each other is all that can be reasonably expected.

 

 

Exactly, but other moderators have been able to press leaders who make such patently ridiculous claims before - Gower was particularly harsh on Ardern for vague answers in the TV3 debate. Not doing it at all just has the predictable outcome of increasingly levels of questionable claims and raising the angst of all parties. The only people who end up losing out are us.

 

 

In the case that you raised Ardern didn't say something that was demonstrably untrue. Collins rebutted her position in a direct way. 

 

I don't really see a problem with this particular case, unless somehow it's disrespectful to Samoa.


Handle9
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  #2581023 8-Oct-2020 07:50
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I managed to watch the debate. I can see why some commentators were making Muldoon comparisons with Collins. For me she came across more like the wicked witch of the west but I can see the similarities to Muldoon.

antonknee
483 posts

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  #2581247 8-Oct-2020 11:43
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Gower's debate - far better than Campbell's, still not fantastic. Marked improvement from both Collins and Ardern but no real winner.

 

The Press debate - best so far, enjoyed watching it. Collins seemed a little unhinged, and I find her overall tone and approach distinctly unpleasant. A shame that there isn't more moderation and fact checking during these things. Ardern the clear winner of this debate - but not really a strong win.

 

High hopes for Mutch-McKay's debate, but I expect they'll be dashed.

 

 





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antonknee
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  #2581249 8-Oct-2020 11:49
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Side note - the new found desire to publicise and politicise Collins' religion reeks of desperation, as does stacking the deck with stooges during the walkabout in Ponsonby yesterday. Transparent and dumb.

 

Also a further thought on the debates, I really wish Ardern would publicly state her position on the cannabis referendum. I understand she may not want her opinion to influence voters (as the incumbent PM and a very popular one, that's probably a real risk) - however I think it's illogical that she has offered her opinion of the end of life choice act and confirmed which way she voted on that referendum. Either apply the logic to both and reveal your vote on neither, or stop playing stupid games.





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networkn
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  #2581279 8-Oct-2020 12:27
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antonknee:

 

Side note - the new found desire to publicise and politicise Collins' religion reeks of desperation, as does stacking the deck with stooges during the walkabout in Ponsonby yesterday. Transparent and dumb.

 

 

Every party does this. I was in Queenstown a few weeks ago and Seymour was there, and his fairly obvious rent a mob too. If you think the Greens and Labour aren't doing it too,  I don't really know what to tell you.

 

 


antonknee
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  #2581295 8-Oct-2020 12:55
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networkn:

 

antonknee:

 

Side note - the new found desire to publicise and politicise Collins' religion reeks of desperation, as does stacking the deck with stooges during the walkabout in Ponsonby yesterday. Transparent and dumb.

 

 

Every party does this. I was in Queenstown a few weeks ago and Seymour was there, and his fairly obvious rent a mob too. If you think the Greens and Labour aren't doing it too,  I don't really know what to tell you.

 

 

 

 

But the difference is that most every single one of them was a stooge or manufactured support, one of them was even Mellow's campaign manager. I know for a fact the Greens invite their party members along to events and encourage them to invite other people (I've attended these before), but they also invite actual members of the public.

 

I'm just saying if you're doing a walkabout with members of the public, it's probably a good idea to actually have some members of the public.





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GV27
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  #2581325 8-Oct-2020 13:46
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antonknee:

 

But the difference is that most every single one of them was a stooge or manufactured support, one of them was even Mellow's campaign manager. I know for a fact the Greens invite their party members along to events and encourage them to invite other people (I've attended these before), but they also invite actual members of the public.

 

I'm just saying if you're doing a walkabout with members of the public, it's probably a good idea to actually have some members of the public.

 

 

Or just remind people to be crystal-clear about who is and who isn't a party member or there in another capacity. It's the difference between a wry byline on a story and a thing that blows up for days at a time in major media outlets. 

 

Death by a thousand (self-inflicted) cuts, it seems. 


Fred99
11113 posts

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  #2581557 8-Oct-2020 18:59
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networkn:

 

antonknee:

 

Side note - the new found desire to publicise and politicise Collins' religion reeks of desperation, as does stacking the deck with stooges during the walkabout in Ponsonby yesterday. Transparent and dumb.

 

 

Every party does this. I was in Queenstown a few weeks ago and Seymour was there, and his fairly obvious rent a mob too. If you think the Greens and Labour aren't doing it too,  I don't really know what to tell you.

 

 

 

 

Not the "politicising one's religion" stunt by pretending to pray to the invisible man in the sky thing though.

 

Far greater admiration for Jacinda who escaped that BS, than Collins - who I don't believe is in any way "Christian" in belief or her normal behaviour - launching a cynical appeal to god-botherers by inviting journalists to take photos of her posing on her knees.  

 

Matthew 6:5 :
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

 

(IOW - if you do what Collins did, according to the bible you're going to look like a hypocrite - but hey, if she was "Christian", she'd know that)

 

Conservatives are easily manipulated by "moral panic" arguments - so most would probably be voting for her anyway.  She's a waste of space.

 

As far as "campaign rent a mob" goes, that's usually how the hard right refer to "protesters" - in an attempt to demean the protesters rather than contest the issue, so it's amusing to see then hoist by their own petard.


Rikkitic

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  #2581571 8-Oct-2020 19:51
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I just looked in on the minority parties debate. What a sh*tstorm! Completely out of control and the 'moderator' doesn't have a clue!

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


antonknee
483 posts

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  #2581583 8-Oct-2020 20:49
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I just find it quite curious and frankly a little disappointing that Collins is now appealing to religion as a last-ditch attempt to scrounge up votes from religious people. Where was religion in her memoir? She’s never mentioned it before, except very briefly in her maiden speech, so why start appealing to religion now? If one wishes to keep their religious beliefs private, I think that’s fantastic - but it reeks that it’s been private throughout her career until now when there’s a chance it could scratch a few votes. Disrespectful.




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antonknee
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  #2581584 8-Oct-2020 20:52
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Rikkitic:

I just looked in on the minority parties debate. What a sh*tstorm! Completely out of control and the 'moderator' doesn't have a clue!


 



I thought James Shaw and David Seymour both presented their points really well. It’s a shame Jami-Lee Ross wasn’t reigned in or fact checked at all. It’s a shame Mutch McKay didn’t do anything to stop them talking over each other or otherwise bring any form of control to the debate.

I think they tried to squeeze a lot into ~45 minutes, so nothing was really done justice.




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