Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)

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#2994829 11-Nov-2022 18:38

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/three-waters-co-governance-retained-after-88000-public-submissions/TMLYGZYFDVB2XDTN565CPSMJYQ/

Shocker that shocks no one. But this comment from Mahuta is kind of telling:

“I’m probably the only minister that’s been brave enough to take forward a really difficult issue and come up with a solution, not more problems and this solution ensures that it is not going going to be a burden on ratepayers, who are facing a cost of living challenge right now.”

Maybe it's not that ministers had to be 'brave' to try this, maybe this particular execution of it just objectively sucks?

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GV27

5859 posts

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#2997330 17-Nov-2022 08:55

I won't link to the source, because frankly I don't know a lot about it and I don't want to send anyone to anything sus, but this passage is popping up in places, regarding the 3 Waters response:

The really radical move in the report — also overlooked entirely by Jack Tame on TVNZ’s Q&A and by Andrew Dickens interviewing Mahuta for Newstalk ZB — was the proposed extension to the scope of Te Mana o Te Wai statements.

Only iwi have the right to issue these edicts, which are binding on the Water Services Entity in their region. That right is denied to non-Maori, who make up the remaining 84 per cent of the population.

The select committee has proposed that such statements, issued exclusively by iwi, should apply not only to freshwater but coastal and geothermal water as well.

So — just like that — Three Waters will become Five Waters. And this extraordinary example of mission creep — well, surge, really — was not even hidden. It appeared on page three of the 200-page report.

Is this another example of 'ministerial bravery'?

marmel

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#2997483 17-Nov-2022 14:11

GV27:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/three-waters-co-governance-retained-after-88000-public-submissions/TMLYGZYFDVB2XDTN565CPSMJYQ/

Shocker that shocks no one. But this comment from Mahuta is kind of telling:

“I’m probably the only minister that’s been brave enough to take forward a really difficult issue and come up with a solution, not more problems and this solution ensures that it is not going going to be a burden on ratepayers, who are facing a cost of living challenge right now.”

Maybe it's not that ministers had to be 'brave' to try this, maybe this particular execution of it just objectively sucks?

So the burden is not going to be on ratepayers? I'm assuming Mahuta has a magic money printing machine so won't need taxpayers to pay for this? Do people really hear this stuff and swallow it up?

sir1963

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#2997493 17-Nov-2022 14:39

marmel:

So the burden is not going to be on ratepayers? I'm assuming Mahuta has a magic money printing machine so won't need taxpayers to pay for this? Do people really hear this stuff and swallow it up?

Of course it will be rate payers, but not in the way people think.

There is as always limited money

Small towns will get right royalty shafted.

Who is going to get the money first, the big cities with lots of political clout and voters that have issues impacting a large number of people

The tiny places like Ohakune, Kinloch, Ohope, Kawhia, etc etc ?

The small guys will be put at the bottom of the list because this too is "the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff" policy

Like ALL politicians they people able to do something about it neglected it because they knew they would be long gone by the time it became an issue.

Why was there no sinking fund for infrastructure ?, was always going to need repair , upgrades and replacement, now those problems have come home to roost there is zero money for it.

Politicians don't get elected for allowing for future costs and not giving tax/rates reductions.

gzt

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#2997597 17-Nov-2022 18:37

GV27: source: Only iwi have the right to issue these edicts, which are binding on the Water Services Entity in their region.

The source of that statement is claiming a number of things including 'edicts' without any real examination of the context

GV27

5859 posts

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#2997709 18-Nov-2022 06:51

gzt:
GV27: source: Only iwi have the right to issue these edicts, which are binding on the Water Services Entity in their region.

The source of that statement is claiming a number of things including 'edicts' without any real examination of the context

The loaded terms were one of the reasons I was reluctant to link to the source.

From what I can tell it's right in theory; the Iwi are the only ones who can issue the statement but the authority will be bound to 'Give Effect' to it, which seems to be more involved than merely addressing it. At that point, though, it seems like anyone can have input, but I'm not seeing anything that says that they can ignore or refuse to implement if impractical.

Whether you'd consider that an 'edict' I would suggest is a question of emotive or creative writing. But it does pose an over-riding avenue of governance that doesn't exactly fit with the 'co-' bit of 'co-governance'.

GV27

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#2999171 21-Nov-2022 13:52

The Keep It 16 thing is an interesting turn of events.

Could it also be a welcome distraction?

JPNZ

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#2999175 21-Nov-2022 13:58

GV27:

The Keep It 16 thing is an interesting turn of events.

Could it also be a welcome distraction?

Bit of a non event really as the only way it can be changed is through Parliament and that won't happen before the next election.

The most interesting news of the weekend for me was NZ First and Winston refusing to work with the current Labour government.

"Peters has previously hinted against a coalition with Labour, saying at an NZ First conference in October he will refuse to join into Government with Labour again as long as it continues to push for Māori co-governance.

However, on Saturday he dropped the news that he is "most definitely" ruling out working with a Jacinda Ardern-led Government in an interview with the NZ Herald.

"No one gets to lie to me twice," Peters told the outlet.

"We are not going to go with the Labour Party, this present Labour Party crowd, because they can't be trusted. You don't get a second time to lie to me, or my party and they did."

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gzt

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#2999178 21-Nov-2022 14:07

GV27: From what I can tell it's right in theory; the Iwi are the only ones who can issue the statement but the authority will be bound to 'Give Effect' to it, which seems to be more involved than merely addressing it.

In practice its not dissimilar in most respects to other longstanding requirements that government departments 'give effect' to the principles of the treaty of waitangi. Additionally in this case the legislation requires the dept publish a response within two years which is hardly consistent with an edict to say the least.

Technofreak

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#2999187 21-Nov-2022 14:28

JPNZ:

However, on Saturday he dropped the news that he is "most definitely" ruling out working with a Jacinda Ardern-led Government in an interview with the NZ Herald.

"No one gets to lie to me twice," Peters told the outlet.

"We are not going to go with the Labour Party, this present Labour Party crowd, because they can't be trusted. You don't get a second time to lie to me, or my party and they did."

What is being "heard" and what he is saying are quite different. I think most people are hearing or thinking he's say no to Labour when in fact he is saying no to the current Labour parliamentary leadership. If that were to change all bets are off.

Winston and his side kick Shane say a lot of things that lot of people agree with, but Winston cannot be trusted. In my opinion he is probably one of the most corrupt and morally bankrupt politicians we've had in recent times.

In reality what Winston should be hearing from his voters is "No one gets to pull the wool over my eyes twice".

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GV27

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#2999191 21-Nov-2022 14:41

JPNZ:

Bit of a non event really as the only way it can be changed is through Parliament and that won't happen before the next election.

I've been thinking about that. It would take a 75% vote to get it over the line.

We know the Nats oppose. Labour perhaps might go either way depending on how badly they something else for people to talk about other than living costs or how bad they're polling. They can always walk away and claim they're being pragmatic if it hurts them.

ACT I assume would probably be against but let's assume they'd be ideologically consistent.

TPM I'd say would be in favour, the Greens definitely are. But you still need to tempt some Nats to get that 90/120 votes and there's little chance it would become a conscience vote issue.

The wildcard here is that National will have significantly more seats after the election, which would effectively nuke any chance of it happening, regardless of whether they would be in power or not. So if not now, then when?

JPNZ

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#2999296 21-Nov-2022 15:50

GV27:

The wildcard here is that National will have significantly more seats after the election, which would effectively nuke any chance of it happening, regardless of whether they would be in power or not. So if not now, then when?

Never? Nobody is saying it has to happen. See what public sentiment is like.. Put it to a referendum in 2026 if needed?

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GV27

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#2999544 22-Nov-2022 07:23

JPNZ:

Never? Nobody is saying it has to happen. See what public sentiment is like.. Put it to a referendum in 2026 if needed?

Would never get over the line and supporters would be insane to agree to it.

sen8or

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#2999549 22-Nov-2022 07:51

A generation that can't even decide how many genders there are now want to vote?

Heck no

GV27

5859 posts

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#2999551 22-Nov-2022 08:01

sen8or:

A generation that can't even decide how many genders there are now want to vote?

Heck no

To be fair a referendum is a binary choice by definition.

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