The politicisation of NZ's covid response

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4281 posts

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#2789483 5-Oct-2021 06:54

Basically Nats just pulled a bit lower number out of the hat. A bit similar like they were at the start of the whole pandemic when they did not want to close the borders.
So great the Nats were not in government during this period.
It's good to have plans, just without or low vax, planing is pointless.

Ironically if the Nats were in government first came about, it would have been under the leadership of English, and I would have trusted him to manage this pandemic in a heartbeat over the current crop.

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freitasm

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#2789503 5-Oct-2021 07:08

GV27:

Basically Nats just pulled a bit lower number out of the hat. A bit similar like they were at the start of the whole pandemic when they did not want to close the borders.
So great the Nats were not in government during this period.
It's good to have plans, just without or low vax, planing is pointless.

Ironically if the Nats were in government first came about, it would have been under the leadership of English, and I would have trusted him to manage this pandemic in a heartbeat over the current crop.

Correct.

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Technofreak

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#2792400 9-Oct-2021 20:56

A very good article. Unfortunately you need a Premium account.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/bruce-cotterill-you-call-that-a-plan-jacinda-ardern-heres-a-plan/AIBRUDZWQZMM2LDHUYOX5FCAAE/

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elpenguino

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#2792716 10-Oct-2021 14:25

GV27:

Basically Nats just pulled a bit lower number out of the hat. A bit similar like they were at the start of the whole pandemic when they did not want to close the borders.
So great the Nats were not in government during this period.
It's good to have plans, just without or low vax, planing is pointless.

Ironically if the Nats were in government first came about, it would have been under the leadership of English, and I would have trusted him to manage this pandemic in a heartbeat over the current crop.

I disagree with you there and you've inadvertently showed why. English was a manager by nature - during tough times like this, a nation needs, and by chance got, a leader.

English, or any other Nation leader, would have bowed to business pressure and kept borders open and restrictions low until it was too late to stop the tide.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

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#2792719 10-Oct-2021 14:50

Although some people are determined not to like her or give her the full credit she is due, Jacinda Ardern is a real leader, in the same sense that Winston Churchill was. She may not always get things right, but she has a unique ability to inspire and motivate people. Bill English is, as has been noted, a manager. Maybe he would have done an okay job as a minister implementing JA's policies, but he lacks the visionary insight that gets people excited.

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Technofreak

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#2792720 10-Oct-2021 14:54

elpenguino:

GV27:

Ironically if the Nats were in government first came about, it would have been under the leadership of English, and I would have trusted him to manage this pandemic in a heartbeat over the current crop.

I disagree with you there and you've inadvertently showed why. English was a manager by nature - during tough times like this, a nation needs, and by chance got, a leader.

English, or any other Nation leader, would have bowed to business pressure and kept borders open and restrictions low until it was too late to stop the tide.

If you think we have a leader now your are sadly mistaken. We have an expert in PR. Any lead is currently given by focus groups. If we had a leader we would have a plan and we would know what it was. We are being drip fed with no idea what targets need to be met to allow changes to happen.

You say the likes of Bill English would have kept the borders open too long. Cast your mind back to when our borders were closed and see what events were being planned, one of which was the Christchurch massacre anniversary. The lock down was delayed as long as possible in the hope they could have been held.

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elpenguino

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#2792724 10-Oct-2021 15:17

Technofreak:

If you think we have a leader now your are sadly mistaken. We have an expert in PR. Any lead is currently given by focus groups.

Uggghh OK, let's ignore that the majority of your fellow voters chose MMP's first majority government.

As a matter of interest, do any other parties in government use focus groups ? "Just asking the question ".......

Sure, Ardern's leadership, choices and policies are not perfect. I'm pretty sure no leader would have been able to chart these rocky waters perfectly. But at the end of the day, I'm comfortable with her leadership.

Imagine if we didn't have repetitive criticism from National which has lead Labour to paint itself into the 'no new taxes' corner?

How numerous do you think our ICU bed numbers would be with appropriate levels of investment in the health system?

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

arcon

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#2792737 10-Oct-2021 16:22

Technofreak:

If you think we have a leader now your are sadly mistaken. We have an expert in PR. Any lead is currently given by focus groups. If we had a leader we would have a plan and we would know what it was. We are being drip fed with no idea what targets need to be met to allow changes to happen.

Different leaders have different styles of leadership - the fact that you dislike the current one's is your personal preference, and its pure conjecture to assume English could've done any better.

What's for certain - politicians who can't make a connection with the masses are not electable and therefore worthless as leader. If they can't inspire people to follow its highly debatable how effective they would be in a crisis. Might make a great minister or something.

alexx

824 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2792898 10-Oct-2021 23:46

GV27:

Basically Nats just pulled a bit lower number out of the hat. A bit similar like they were at the start of the whole pandemic when they did not want to close the borders.
So great the Nats were not in government during this period.
It's good to have plans, just without or low vax, planing is pointless.

Ironically if the Nats were in government first came about, it would have been under the leadership of English, and I would have trusted him to manage this pandemic in a heartbeat over the current crop.

Bill English might have been o.k. but his team would most likely still include Brian Tamaki's former landlady, who 's only consistent stance on Covid appears too be to blame each new case on the gangs.

Plus there is the former Philip Morris tobacco lobbyist and a woman who claims to have been hit by lightning three times, which appears to be three more times than she has been vaccinated against Covid.

#include <standard.disclaimer>

Fred99

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#2792986 11-Oct-2021 09:20

The National party is being loaded up with authoritarian Christian conservatives much the same as the Aus Liberals.

Stealthy and deliberate move by Goodfellow. Judith Collins (and others) aren't on board the Jesus Express. She gave it a whack for a photo opportunity, but couldn't pull it off - nobody believed her.

Prayer won't save you from Covid, and the evangelical/pentacostal leaders have been "somewhat tardy" in getting behind the concept of having their flocks drenched.

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#2793038 11-Oct-2021 10:54

I like how a previous National leader is involved in a project by the Mongrel Mob.

Former National Party leader Don Brash has come out in defence of the gang community, saying the Government appears to be making them the "fall guys" for the spread of Covid-19.

Brash, who works as the treasurer of an initiative started by the Mongrel Mob, said he was worried about the ongoing situation relating to people affiliated with gangs were to blame for spreading Covid.

"I am worried that gangs are being made the fall guys for something that they have had no control over.

"We are told that gangs are responsible for spreading this virus. If that's true, the Government should confirm it," he said.

"If there is evidence, let's see it. Otherwise, it's scaremongering and not helpful at all."

Brash's words were released in a press statement sent out by the Mongrel Mob ahead of a Covid information workshop and vaccination event being set up on Saturday targeting those affiliated with the gang.

To me this shows how National can complain about the government but didn't put the whole thing in perspective...

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Technofreak

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#2793039 11-Oct-2021 10:54

elpenguino:

Uggghh OK, let's ignore that the majority of your fellow voters chose MMP's first majority government.

As a matter of interest, do any other parties in government use focus groups ? "Just asking the question ".......

Sure, Ardern's leadership, choices and policies are not perfect. I'm pretty sure no leader would have been able to chart these rocky waters perfectly. But at the end of the day, I'm comfortable with her leadership.

Imagine if we didn't have repetitive criticism from National which has lead Labour to paint itself into the 'no new taxes' corner?

How numerous do you think our ICU bed numbers would be with appropriate levels of investment in the health system?

First MMP majority government

Yes they did. There was a unique set of factors that contributed to that. Historically in times of adversity/crisis the incumbent governments have almost always been re-elected. The main opposition party (National) was in disarray, and lastly a significant proportion of the population didn't want the Greens with their hands on the levers of power.

Focus groups

Yes, most definitely other governments have used focus group but not the the extent this government seems to allow them to set the direction of government.

Ardern's Leadership

Agree no leader is perfect. We will have to agree to disagree. She is to wishy washy for me. Someone compared her to Winston Churchill. For someone to do that they haven't studied Winston Churchill. IMO they aren't in the same league.

Under her leadership the PR teams within government have increased significantly. Staying on message is very important to this government.

No new taxes and ICU beds

I totally agree when you say "How numerous do you think our ICU bed numbers would be with appropriate levels of investment in the health system?"

I take it you are saying because of the "No New Taxes" pledge there isn't money for more ICU beds.

Without raising taxes the government has found money for all the PR people I mentioned. Without raising taxes the the government has found a billion dollars a week to fight Covid. The money needed to increase ICU bed numbers is a small fraction of that.

In fact the ICU bed situation is worse now than when Covid started. In the current environment that is a shocking statistic.

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elpenguino

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#2793042 11-Oct-2021 10:57

Fred99:

The National party is being loaded up with authoritarian Christian conservatives much the same as the Aus Liberals.

Stealthy and deliberate move by Goodfellow. Judith Collins (and others) aren't on board the Jesus Express. She gave it a whack for a photo opportunity, but couldn't pull it off - nobody believed her.

Prayer won't save you from Covid, and the evangelical/pentacostal leaders have been "somewhat tardy" in getting behind the concept of having their flocks drenched.

Interesting observation. In the past, things like the Christian Conservative Party failed to get any traction although in that case, maybe the leader was too busy dreaming about fornication instead of saving heathen's souls. In general, kiwis like it secular with a nice separation between church and state.

So what's the aim by stacking National with Christians? Is there a desire to rain down hellfire on us Philistines?

If there is, I'll just put up my yeah/nah umbrella till the shower's over.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

gzt

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#2793059 11-Oct-2021 11:21

Technofreak: Yes, most definitely other governments have used focus group but not the the extent this government seems to allow them to set the direction of government.

You've made a few assertions about this without providing any references. This is an interesting point and it probably belongs in the general labour govt topic.

arcon

406 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2793063 11-Oct-2021 11:27

Technofreak:

First MMP majority government

Yes they did. There was a unique set of factors that contributed to that. Historically in times of adversity/crisis the incumbent governments have almost always been re-elected. The main opposition party (National) was in disarray, and lastly a significant proportion of the population didn't want the Greens with their hands on the levers of power.

Not sure what election you were watching. The Green's percentage of votes in 2020 was HIGHER than it was in 2017, and they won freaking Auckalnd Central 😂

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