Ukraine War discussion

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#3038276 17-Feb-2023 17:10

... oh yes, the Ukrainian civilian population does not suffer hardly because we stupid Germans (or government or whatever), as uninvolved, helping third parties, do not hand over our own invented and built weapons to a non NATO country quickly enough (because we had our own supply-related governmental failures), but because the two opponents do not approach each other seriously and promptly sit down the negotiating table or … it doesn't hurt enough for that.

Media vultures and simple minded individuals may see and sell this differently, but rationally speaking, it's a fact.

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kingdragonfly

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#3038311 17-Feb-2023 18:23

Tinkerisk:I am not a friend of generalization.

You're going to hate this post. I think a good number of Germans, in particular older Germans, feel a great weight on their shoulders due to, frankly, ancient history.

By scale and longevity, the British have probably done more harm to the world. But I've only heard British comedians jokingly apologize

American History, though shorter, certainly doesn't lack in past atrocities, and continue to bring all humanity to the end-days..

Don't get me started on religion...

So give yourself, as a German some credit. Sure Germans could do more for Ukraine, but they're a lot of countries doing a whole lot less. (I'm looking at you Turkey, Hungary and Slovakia)

Sit back in a comfortable chair, have a beer, and repeat "We're not perfect, but we're OK."

Tinkerisk

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#3038331 17-Feb-2023 19:38

I understood the irony of your post, my dear friend. We may not agree, but I promise to do everything I can to allow you to express yourself freely (yeah, I stole that quote).

Nobody is perfect, what we can or cannot do ultimately decides what is left in our treasury, because every Hans and Franz seems to think that all are millionaires here and that Germany is the promised paradise for all kinds of refugees. I'm politically independent but still very happy that at least our incumbent chancellor seems to be a thoughtful person with character who doesn't give in to every domestic and foreign media shitstorm and can largely assert his positions. Others don't stand up to the high demands of their office in the long term (which is honorable and for which I have the utmost respect!). Perhaps, as a former finance minister, he is also good at arithmetic? I dealt with him personally as a citizen when he was still mayor of our city.

Speaking of religion: hopefully we don't have to talk about national debt and national budgets in general, do we? I rarely drink beer, more wine and that with friends at the table and I don't have a wing chair either. Are you running the New York (Half) Marathon with me or are you traveling for work at the moment?

Sometimes I wish we were neutral like Switzerland, but even they refuse to release our Gepard anti-aircraft ammunition ordered there for delivery to the Ukraine - it just doesn't matter to anyone, because that‘s why they are neutral. What a pitty - we have to pay for again!

itxtme

2102 posts

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#3038375 17-Feb-2023 22:53

Tinkerisk:

... oh yes, the Ukrainian civilian population does not suffer hardly because we stupid Germans (or government or whatever), as uninvolved, helping third parties, do not hand over our own invented and built weapons to a non NATO country quickly enough (because we had our own supply-related governmental failures), but because the two opponents do not approach each other seriously and promptly sit down the negotiating table or … it doesn't hurt enough for that.

Media vultures and simple minded individuals may see and sell this differently, but rationally speaking, it's a fact.

---

Sometimes I wish we were neutral like Switzerland, but even they refuse to release our Gepard anti-aircraft ammunition ordered there for delivery to the Ukraine - it just doesn't matter to anyone, because that‘s why they are neutral. What a pitty - we have to pay for again!

And thats where these simple minded people like myself disagree. We believe in a rules based order. One where you cannot just invade another country. Maybe its a generational thing, but the days of taking your neighbours land are over. In a similar vain to all your replies to me, maybe you would like to offer your house/land/apartment to the Russians, maybe it was Russian once?

Switzerland has well and truly shot their armaments industry in the foot, nobody in there right mind will buy from them. Not to mention the enormous back channel pressure being applied in regards to Russian money and their neutrality stance. This article is just the latest in a long line, with the real pressures of change and it laws are looking like they will.

Get with freedom for Ukraine or get off the bus, there is no negotiating with Putin. 2014 showed that, as did 2008 in Georgia and so does the posturing that is happening right now in Moldova. Hell we haven't even mentioned the blatant poisonings on foreign soil. He is a psychopath who can only be stopped by force.

Add to that if I was a citizen of your country I would feel like I owe Ukraine. By not being stronger against Russia in 2014, by signing up to Nordstream 2, by continuing to pipe cheap energy from them to accelerate my countries manufacturing base and therefore my GDP. Yeah I would feel ever so slightly guilty, and maybe want my country to be forthcoming with more, and with better weapons. Hey thats me, with a conscience. Clearly you feel nothing in regards to the moments in recent history... go figure

Tinkerisk

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#3038393 18-Feb-2023 05:15

I happily give up. You can't even distinguish between a neutral definition of a war and actual politics. Talk to the water. 😎

linw

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#3038547 18-Feb-2023 11:06

Mr Scholz is on CNN at the Munich Security Conference saying Germany is fully there for Ukraine as long as it takes.

Impressive speech in my humble opinion.

itxtme

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#3038571 18-Feb-2023 12:41

Tinkerisk:

I happily give up. You can't even distinguish between a neutral definition of a war and actual politics. Talk to the water. 😎

Probably for the best since you only seem able to gaslight me rather than offer up a concise counter view that doesn't involve throwing the UN charter out the window.

freitasm

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#3038584 18-Feb-2023 13:47

itxtme:

Tinkerisk:

I happily give up. You can't even distinguish between a neutral definition of a war and actual politics. Talk to the water. 😎

Probably for the best since you only seem able to gaslight me rather than offer up a concise counter view that doesn't involve throwing the UN charter out the window.

The way I'm reading you are not that innocent either as you want to make it look like. Stop trolling.

My technology disclosure

kingdragonfly

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#3038820 18-Feb-2023 21:17

Shown on Russian TV.

Twitter video:

"We are observing the third Russian Empire now. From a historical point of view, the first one was built by Peter The Great.

The second was built by Stalin. You call it the Soviet Unio, whatever. It's an imperial project indeed. And by the way, it did last a bit after his death.

And the third one, de facto, was built by Putin, which annoys the hell out of everyone in the west."

kingdragonfly

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#3038824 18-Feb-2023 21:31

It's odd the victim called her husband that she had left self-incriminating documents on her balcony, was going to jump, but somehow several hours passed before they found her body on the pavement below.

I guess someone screaming as they fall 16 stories is a part of the natural background noise, because it would be impossible to leap to one's death if you're unconscious.

Independent UK: Senior Russian military official ‘plunges 16 storeys to her death falling from window’

A senior military official in Russia heavily involved in funding Vladimir Putin’s war in Ukraine has reportedly plummeted 16 storeys to her death in St Petersburg.

The body of Marina Yankina was found on the pavement below an apartment building in the city’s Kalininsky district shortly before 8am on Wednesday morning, according to local reports.

The 58-year-old was finance director of the Western Military District, one of the five geographical battalions which comprise Russia’s army, the leader of which Mr Putin has replaced multiple times since invading Ukraine last February.

The Western Military District confirmed one of its employees had died, but refused to comment further – instead pointing local outlets to the authorities investigating her death.

Ms Yankina called her ex-husband to let him know she was about to jump, and told him that she was leaving her documents and packed belongings on the balcony, a local Telegram news channel claimed, adding that “the motives continue to be clarified”.
...

neb

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#3038826 18-Feb-2023 21:35

kingdragonfly: Shown on Russian TV. [...] And the third one, de facto, was built by Putin, which annoys the hell out of everyone in the west."

No, what annoys the west is the switch in tactics from combat to war crimes. What a delusional sawdust caesar thinks he's doing doesn't actually bother us much at all.

gzt

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#3038855 18-Feb-2023 23:28

Tinkerisk: ... oh yes, the Ukrainian civilian population does not suffer hardly because we stupid Germans (or government or whatever), as uninvolved,

I'm not really sure what you're saying there. I think we can both agree the suffering of affected people in Ukraine is immense.

Tinkerisk

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#3038867 19-Feb-2023 01:14

gzt:
Tinkerisk: ... oh yes, the Ukrainian civilian population does not suffer hardly because we stupid Germans (or government or whatever), as uninvolved,

I'm not really sure what you're saying there. I think we can both agree the suffering of affected people in Ukraine is immense.

edit: After re-reading I found that „not suffer“ must be „suffer“ - sorry for that!

Undoubtedly. Acts of war do not exclude ordered atrocities by the Russians against the Ukrainian civilian population as part of the moral decomposition of the opponent, just because they are internationally outlawed war crimes - without wanting to excuse or legitimise this, of course). Opponents use everything to weaken each other - there is no „bellum iustum“ (just war)!

All I meant to say was that the cause for suffering is the war itself, not whether or not third parties are supplying weapons (quickly enough). If third parties did not have any available, this war would still take place. You have to make a clear distinction between who the actors are and who the supporters are. The supporter can never bear responsibility for the war of the actor and his people, he has to do that himself.

ezbee

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#3039412 20-Feb-2023 14:12

Russia Struggles Going into Second Year of War
Jake Broe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRT829yuCF0

About 14min in a reminder of what Russia was saying a year ago about the absurdity of the west.
Russian peaceful assurances, high level diplomats, to the leadership.

Plus others pushing USA and Biden were nuts to suggest an invasion.
Warmongers to even propose the idea that Russia would do so.

Belarus-es Lukashenko seems to bring out Putin's dancing legs.
Maybe Lukashenko got the real Putin, not the body double ? Or its a Lukashenko thing.

Stirring up things in Moldavia, Serbia is Serbia again.
Orban's Hungary in the friends with benefits, but I'm not really your friend camp.

So we will have Putin's big speech.
Another Putin sellout concert of terror.
Special meeting of Russian Parliament to stamp any legislation the day after on 24th.

kingdragonfly

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#3039511 20-Feb-2023 16:41

I remember watching that "Face the Nation" interview with the Russian diplomat saying Russia was just doing military exercises, and would never invade Ukraine.

And I remember thinking: "this guy is lying."

You can never, ever, trust anything any diplomat says.

More trustworthy than Russian diplomats: Fox news presenters, Mexican police, advertising executives

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