NZ as a Republic?

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#2971894 23-Sep-2022 06:52

jpoc:

Right, so the presidents of Ireland and Germany are political and divisive? Care to name one post war president from those two countries who meets that description?

I mention those two countries because they share our electoral system. Indeed when we went to our current electoral system, we based it on a close study of those two coutries.

Ireland and Germany have far bigger populations to choose from. NZ, from a reading of current events, still struggles with the basics of conflicts of interest at a cabinet level. It's not unthinkable that we could end with a recycled ex-PM as President.

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#2971895 23-Sep-2022 06:54

jpoc: We are losing out because of this and we are conducting the promotion of New Zealand's national interests with one hand tied behind our back. It costs us in trade deals, influence, investment and I expect many other areas.

That is not the case. Our Prime Minister is in fact accorded that status equal to a head of state when visiting other countries. If any part of that argument was correct it would also apply to the Prime Minister of the UK

Similar situation to a Kiwi CEO visiting the USA. In business meetings they meet with Presidents of USA companies even though that title is not prevalent in NZ.

jpoc

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#2971896 23-Sep-2022 06:54

tdgeek:

<snip>

The Head of State would be the PM. She/he already is.

<snip>

Care to name a Western nation that has a prime minister who is also head of state?

The UK, Ireland, France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Germany, Sweeden, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Spain? Nope, none of those.

There is a very good reason for this. In all of those coutries, one role of the head of state is the selection of a prime ministerial candidate. That means that, in the case of an election that results in a parliament lacking a majority for one party or closely allied group, there is an independent and respected arbiter of who should get a go at trying to form a government and if the first selected candidate fails, then the head of state will be in a position to tell another person to have a go. That is a lot more likely to result in the selection of a government rtepresenting the will of the electorate than just passing the role over tothe outgoing prime miniter who will not be unbiased.

jpoc

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#2971912 23-Sep-2022 06:59

allan:

Likewise I can't see the benefit. Frankly, there aren't too many great examples of well functioning republics in the world.

I suppose that Germany, France, Ireland and Switzerland don't count.

jpoc

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#2971913 23-Sep-2022 07:08

GV27:

<snip>

Ireland and Germany have far bigger populations to choose from.

<snip0>

Do you even know the current population of Ireland?

It is actually a few thousand less than New Zealand's.

tdgeek

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#2971915 23-Sep-2022 07:14

jpoc:

tdgeek:

<snip>

I can't think of many pro's to becoming a republic

I can think of one but it is so important that it is clear to me that we should become a republic.

When a head of state visits another country, they get treated as you would expect for a head of state.

They meet the top figures from the state that they are visiting - bankers, business leaders, government ministers etc etc.

They will in be accompanied by people holding similar roles in their own country.

The visit will facilitate meetings between those groups from both countries.

When the British monarch visits other countries, they are not accompanied by the head of federated farmers or the New Zealand minister for trade or anyone else representing New Zealand interests.

When our Govenor General visits another country they are seen as a miinor official and they do not open doors in the same way.

We are losing out because of this and we are conducting the promotion of New Zealand's national interests with one hand tied behind our back.

It costs us in trade deals, influence, investment and I expect many other areas.

AFAIK Royal visits are rare, as are GG visits. I have seen many many trips by Labour and National Ministers of Portfolios drumming up trade, deals, and general networking

Your post is correct, but its already happening

tdgeek

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#2971922 23-Sep-2022 07:23

jpoc:

Care to name a Western nation that has a prime minister who is also head of state?

The UK, Ireland, France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Germany, Sweeden, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Spain? Nope, none of those.

There is a very good reason for this. In all of those coutries, one role of the head of state is the selection of a prime ministerial candidate. That means that, in the case of an election that results in a parliament lacking a majority for one party or closely allied group, there is an independent and respected arbiter of who should get a go at trying to form a government and if the first selected candidate fails, then the head of state will be in a position to tell another person to have a go. That is a lot more likely to result in the selection of a government rtepresenting the will of the electorate than just passing the role over tothe outgoing prime miniter who will not be unbiased.

Prime Minister, President, call it what you like. Who is the Head of State for USA?

The leader of the governing party is the Head of State. Constitution is the rules and boundaries of how governing is managed. Any issues a Supreme Court can decide. In NZ we have a GG who fulfils that role. If I was famous and I had a lovely career in public service I could be GG, but I'd prefer legal experts to manage Constitution issues. not those who were rewarded for service to the community

Head of State is a bit of a misnomer. It's really an Arbiter of State

tdgeek

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#2971923 23-Sep-2022 07:27

jpoc:

allan:

Likewise I can't see the benefit. Frankly, there aren't too many great examples of well functioning republics in the world.

I suppose that Germany, France, Ireland and Switzerland don't count.

IMO whether a Republic or a Commonwealth nation are well functioining or not, doesn't depend on it being a republic or not. Its whether they are a democracy or not

GV27

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#2971924 23-Sep-2022 07:31

jpoc:

Do you even know the current population of Ireland?

It is actually a few thousand less than New Zealand's.

I did not actually know that. Weird, I always thought it was like 8m?

jpoc

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#2971928 23-Sep-2022 07:39

GV27:

jpoc:

Do you even know the current population of Ireland?

It is actually a few thousand less than New Zealand's.

I did not actually know that. Weird, I always thought it was like 8m?

That would be the population of the entire island. The extra three milion being the population of Ulster/Northern Ireland who have the British monarch as head of state.

Handle9

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#2971929 23-Sep-2022 07:39

GV27:
jpoc:

Do you even know the current population of Ireland?

It is actually a few thousand less than New Zealand's.

I did not actually know that. Weird, I always thought it was like 8m?

There’s another couple of million in Northern Ireland.

Geektastic

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#2971946 23-Sep-2022 08:22

The ones in NI are British.

evilengineer

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#2971952 23-Sep-2022 08:32

Geektastic: The ones in NI are British.

....and Irish. The Republic of Ireland will give anyone from NI a passport.

Whether they'd accept that passport is something else entirely.

evilengineer

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#2971962 23-Sep-2022 08:52

SJB:

I still come back the point that you need to win by a big margin.

You could argue that if the referendum split needs to be 70-30 and the result is 69-31 you have a lot more unhappy people than if you leave it at 50-50.

But that's not very democratic either, is it?

Requiring a "super majority" for change gives the No/Status Quo side quite a large in built advantage.

Probably better to say that 70-75% turnout required for the result to be legally binding, otherwise advisory only.

PS:

Brixit referendum was only "advisory" and this caused all sorts of problems.

Still impossible to ignore the result politically but advisory status meant much looser campaigning and finance rules.

Result still stood without any auditing despite quite strong evidence of shady stuff having gone on (at least to the standard of reasonable suspicion) that was never investigated properly.

MikeAqua

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#2971988 23-Sep-2022 09:39

I honestly don't see what a republic gains us in aa practical sense (absent major constitutional reform).

We have a functioning parliament which acts a legislature and provides the executive; and a monarch who (via His GG) approves new legislation (usually a mere formality) and can kick the whole parliament out if they become dysfunctional or corrupt. That power is rarely exercised but it is there as a safeguard. Similar powers have been exercised in Australia, when Gough Whitlam was turfed out of the PM's office, amid a constitutional crisis.

A GG doesn't have to consider re-election. That sounds like a strange thing to be pleased about, but it makes the person strictly independent.

You could replace that function with a president. But have to have an election, which is expensive and any chump can win. We've all see that play out a number of times in the US and in France.

You could also have an bicameral system, but an upper house is potentially just a dysfunctional as lower house and would be more expensive than a president.

Mike

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