Chris Hipkins, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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#3103609 13-Jul-2023 11:14

sen8or:

quickymart:

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/07/13/why-the-chippy-vs-luxon-tv-debates-will-be-so-important-this-election/ Bomber analyses the debate and the skills of each candidate.

Putting aside the tone of the article, which is about as neutral as an Aussie cricket commentator, some of the points are quite valid. Luxon will not win a debate against Hipkins if he tries to go head to head. Hipkins has too many political years under his belt and Luxon's "I'm not a politician" stance won't cut it.

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#3103635 13-Jul-2023 12:31

sen8or:

quickymart:

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/07/13/why-the-chippy-vs-luxon-tv-debates-will-be-so-important-this-election/ Bomber analyses the debate and the skills of each candidate.

Putting aside the tone of the article, which is about as neutral as an Aussie cricket commentator, some of the points are quite valid. Luxon will not win a debate against Hipkins if he tries to go head to head. Hipkins has too many political years under his belt and Luxon's "I'm not a politician" stance won't cut it.

I see it the other way. Luxon will go in with some killer lines about the state of the economy, education, health, crime etc and then just keep whacking Hipkins with them. Remember Key in the debate vs Phil Goff and all he had to say was "show me the money" and it was all over. Hipkins is very vulnerable because of his government's record and the state of key sectors health, education, crime and so on.

Whereas in the election run-up the incumbent has a visibility advantage, I think in the debates the challenger has the advantage as they have no responsibility for anything.

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#3103645 13-Jul-2023 13:18

sen8or: Except their definition of rich and most peoples definition of rich is vastly different. Look at the tax brackets, you only have to be on $70k to be in the 2nd highest bracket, you must be rich.

I'm guessing that bracket was mostly inherited from previous governments plus inflation as described. Comparing internationally it's more the case that NZ has a relatively flat structure with less brackets. Looking up further into the 180s definitely a lot less take at the top end than many countries.

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#3103647 13-Jul-2023 13:27

sen8or: They also manipulated the definition of income to paint the picture they wanted with their wealth review to garner support from the masses against the absolute top 1% of the 1% top wealth holders.

I don't think that's the case. I agree there's an implicit assumption wealth at that level comes with an income or liquidity high enough to pay the required presumably small percentage of high value wealth asset tax the Labour govt was thinking of proposing. Realistically it would have been small and much smaller and applying to a higher value than the Green proposal.

Technofreak

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#3103681 13-Jul-2023 15:43

gzt:
sen8or: Except their definition of rich and most peoples definition of rich is vastly different. Look at the tax brackets, you only have to be on $70k to be in the 2nd highest bracket, you must be rich.

I'm guessing that bracket was mostly inherited from previous governments plus inflation as described. Comparing internationally it's more the case that NZ has a relatively flat structure with less brackets. Looking up further into the 180s definitely a lot less take at the top end than many countries.

It may well have been inherited but they could have done something about yet they haven't. There in lies much of the problem.

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#3103733 13-Jul-2023 16:10

The bracket may have been inherited, but in 2017 when they took power, median wage was approximately $30/hour ($ 62.4k), so median worker was not hitting the top bracket at that time. Fast forward to 2022, Median wage was approximately $36/hr ($75k), now a median wage worker is hitting the old top tax bracket (and median wage is now on its way up to $40).

https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/wages

If labour was actually accomplishing something, I don't think too many would actually quibble about the increased tax take, but they have simply missed the mark too frequently

tdgeek

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#3103757 13-Jul-2023 18:03

Technofreak:

It may well have been inherited but they could have done something about yet they haven't. There in lies much of the problem.

Therein lies the problem for this election. Its inherited. True. Decades of past Governments have kicked the can. One day it will be a problem.Covid (production and demand) have exacerbated that . Ukraine has as well, as everything we do has an oil cost effect.

But, if it was apparently all ok (housing, infrastructure, health, education, crime) in 2016 now its shocking ok. But thats not the case

Off tangent here, but it really bothered me. Chris Luxon had a meeting, all good. Talked about education being crap, all good. Someone talked about removing Maori names from Government agencies, and that got the most noise. Wow. Im 100% white, but I'm shocked. Maori is part of our culture. That Maori names are linked to many things these days is a plus. Its not going to re write our economy, nor will it make our economy go broke. It's US. But when a comment like that gets raucous support over education, thats a problem. Seems like alt-right to me.

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#3103776 13-Jul-2023 19:15

From my understanding he was speaking to a crowd of all National supporters in a (mostly) Pakeha suburb (Birkenhead, if memory serves) - so, as depressing as this is, it seems to be par for the course these days 🙁

GV27

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#3104140 14-Jul-2023 17:05

tdgeek:

Off tangent here, but it really bothered me. Chris Luxon had a meeting, all good. Talked about education being crap, all good. Someone talked about removing Maori names from Government agencies, and that got the most noise. Wow. Im 100% white, but I'm shocked. Maori is part of our culture. That Maori names are linked to many things these days is a plus. Its not going to re write our economy, nor will it make our economy go broke. It's US. But when a comment like that gets raucous support over education, thats a problem. Seems like alt-right to me.

There's two bits to this. There's the 'Maori things bad' bit, albeit made worse by RNZ and others only using Maori names for ministries in new reports.

Then there's huge amount of money spent on performative culture exercises (RBNZ for example) which has then pursued policy settings that have been pretty bad for the wider population, but are even worse for economically disenfranchised groups.

Those people don't cease to be impoverished because you changed a name and stuck some Maori sculptures in your foyer in Wellington.

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#3104151 14-Jul-2023 17:35

GV27:

There's two bits to this. There's the 'Maori things bad' bit, albeit made worse by RNZ and others only using Maori names for ministries in new reports.

Then there's huge amount of money spent on performative culture exercises (RBNZ for example) which has then pursued policy settings that have been pretty bad for the wider population, but are even worse for economically disenfranchised groups.

Those people don't cease to be impoverished because you changed a name and stuck some Maori sculptures in your foyer in Wellington.

Not sure of your point.

Using Maori names has zero effect on our economy. It has a massive effect on our culture. Unless you are alt-right, aka ACT

Maori names are nt political, they are culture.

Those people don't cease to be impoverished because you changed a name and stuck some Maori sculptures in your foyer in Wellington.

True. Again, not sure of your point as you have stated you wont vote for Labour and you wont vote for National. I assume you will vote for ACT?

sir1963

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#3104152 14-Jul-2023 17:44

GV27:

tdgeek:

Off tangent here, but it really bothered me. Chris Luxon had a meeting, all good. Talked about education being crap, all good. Someone talked about removing Maori names from Government agencies, and that got the most noise. Wow. Im 100% white, but I'm shocked. Maori is part of our culture. That Maori names are linked to many things these days is a plus. Its not going to re write our economy, nor will it make our economy go broke. It's US. But when a comment like that gets raucous support over education, thats a problem. Seems like alt-right to me.

There's two bits to this. There's the 'Maori things bad' bit, albeit made worse by RNZ and others only using Maori names for ministries in new reports.

Then there's huge amount of money spent on performative culture exercises (RBNZ for example) which has then pursued policy settings that have been pretty bad for the wider population, but are even worse for economically disenfranchised groups.

Those people don't cease to be impoverished because you changed a name and stuck some Maori sculptures in your foyer in Wellington.

Having travelled a reasonable amount overseas....I have found it REALLY helpful that they have English names too. And English speaking cultures tend to expect this.

We also expect anyone coming to NZ "learn our language and culture" , well we should apply that to ourselves too. I will be learning Maori along side my Grandson as I want him to have the best value he can get out of all his cultural heritages (European, Maori, Samoan) and I want to be able to share all of that with him.

Canada had both French and English for everything

Got to Holland and be amazed at the ;language skills they have, I met one person who spoke 12 languages fluently and did enough of another 6 or so to be understood.

There is zero harm in having both. Signs need replacing every now and again anyway, so of they get swapped at the time for ones with dual language there is minimal cost involved. I don't see the issue with it.

matisyahu

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#3104153 14-Jul-2023 17:47

I vote Greens for my party vote and Labour for my local MP but I fear the fact that for 6 years there hasn't been any sort of long term vision put out by Labour that would get the population excited about a Labour led government - a bold vision for rail rather than the 6-12 month contracts of tinkering around the edges, the lack of a bold mandate so that HNZ can step up to be the short of public housing institution that exists in Japan, Singapore, Austria etc. where the profit incentive is taken out of the market when it comes to rentals.

When it comes to the masses we may see a combination of a low voter turnout combined with frustrated voters deciding to 'give the other joker a try' which will bring National-ACT to power but don't expect things to improve, it'll be the same mediocrity but in a different colour unfortunately.

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Technofreak

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#3104154 14-Jul-2023 17:51

GV27:

There's two bits to this. There's the 'Maori things bad' bit, albeit made worse by RNZ and others only using Maori names for ministries in new reports.

Then there's huge amount of money spent on performative culture exercises (RBNZ for example) which has then pursued policy settings that have been pretty bad for the wider population, but are even worse for economically disenfranchised groups.

Those people don't cease to be impoverished because you changed a name and stuck some Maori sculptures in your foyer in Wellington.

I have no problem with the Maori language being kept alive and growing as a language. I think for the good of Maori and their culture I'd say it's actually vitally important. For the continuance of the language to properly succeed it needs to be organically driven not "enhanced" by virtue signalling government actions.

When I see a Maori name used for some government department I have no idea which department that might be. I wonder what percentage of the population have any idea either. All it does is create confusion.

Gradually we will come to associate the Maori words with one department or another. I'd be willing to bet even then that only a very small percentage of the population will know what the words actually say. I'd also bet many people identifying as Maori wouldn't be able to accurately translate for you what the words say either.

When you do translate some of them you'd be hard pressed to know which agency or department it was for. Take Waka Kotahi which translates to Vessel One or One Vessel. Hardly a name that conjures up what the NZTA does.

The question has to be asked, What is gained by all of this? There's better ways to develop the Maori language for those that desire to use it.

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tdgeek

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#3104157 14-Jul-2023 18:02

matisyahu:

I vote Greens for my party vote and Labour for my local MP but I fear the fact that for 6 years there hasn't been any sort of long term vision put out by Labour that would get the population excited about a Labour led government - a bold vision for rail rather than the 6-12 month contracts of tinkering around the edges, the lack of a bold mandate so that HNZ can step up to be the short of public housing institution that exists in Japan, Singapore, Austria etc. where the profit incentive is taken out of the market when it comes to rentals.

When it comes to the masses we may see a combination of a low voter turnout combined with frustrated voters deciding to 'give the other joker a try' which will bring National-ACT to power but don't expect things to improve, it'll be the same mediocrity but in a different colour unfortunately.

100%

Some, including me, can argue that Covid and Putin have had a massive effect on all countries. Many here see that as minor.

NZ has many many issues, Health, Education, Housing, Infrastructure, Climate Change, etc and etc. Plus we want tax cuts, which mean the former are a no go, although the past has shown they are a no go anyway by both parties. Apparently Labour wants more taxes... Apparently National wants tax cuts. Both have positives. Standard tax thresholds move average earners into higher tax brackets even though they are still average. Thats not good and both parties failed that as its a good earner. One party wants tax cuts that will give the low to average earner 40 bucks a week, as they did last election. Or 2017. While the MP's of this world get 18k free.

Its a total disconnect. NZ is poor (relatively)

We could have tax increases and move forward on the many issues Ive highlighted
We could have massive tax cuts, and move the economy forward, but do not complain about Health, Education, Housing, Infrastructure, Climate Change, etc and etc

Rikkitic

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#3104158 14-Jul-2023 18:07

Technofreak:

The question has to be asked, What is gained by all of this? There's better ways to develop the Maori language for those that desire to use it.

Learn a few new words mate. It won't kill you. People do it all the time.

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