Chris Hipkins, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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#3113223 8-Aug-2023 12:30

tdgeek:

sir1963:

It is no less wasted than you voting for a party who them implements a policy you disagree with. You vote meant and achieved nothing here too.

Voting for someone you disagree with simply because they are popular is simply a tacit agreement that you approve their policies, voting against them is a clear indication you do not, even if you do not get direct representation the parties are aware of areas they are losing votes to.

Voting based on tribalism, ie like the USA, is even worse, because the parties know 90% of their voters will always vote for them, all they need to do is suppress the other side and the swing voters to win.

You're assuming that votes for small parties are a bit of a laugh and not serious. At least we would see new ideas and new opposition in Parliament thats not 100% partisan, party-line based. Nothing wrong with that

I have regularly voted for smaller parties because their policies agreed with my world view the most.

They may not have entered parliament, but not one of my votes was ever wasted.

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#3113225 8-Aug-2023 12:32

sen8or:

And where do we draw the line on % of votes if not 5%, 2%? Will there then be an argument that its not fair on those only reaching 1.9% and we really need to adjust them? Rinse and repeat?

Do we really want a Govt so tied up in knots surrounded by fringe parties to make a "representative Govt" that it can't get simple legislation across the line because it doesn't appeal to someone who represents such a small% of the vote?

We have that now. If the "fringe" parties had enough sway, yes they may affect law making, but they are representing Kiwis. We could go back to FPP and just have two parties, one winner, full control for their term. Which is basically a minority Govt being massaged into a majority. Not representative at all. But if we use MMP, it needs to be MMP. The only issue I see is the silly little parties having a say, but lowering the % to a level that exceeds the mates votes would work.

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#3113226 8-Aug-2023 12:35

sir1963:

I have regularly voted for smaller parties because their policies agreed with my world view the most.

They may not have entered parliament, but not one of my votes was ever wasted.

The point is they will always be wasted as they will always fall under the 5%. So, reduce the 5% so more smaller parties can participate. Being small they wont roll any Government, but they will have a say. Which may be valid issues or making the government accountable

johno1234

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#3113342 8-Aug-2023 14:26

sir1963:

"Prime Minister Chris Hipkins doesn't accept crime has become worse under his watch"

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/08/prime-minister-chris-hipkins-doesn-t-accept-crime-has-become-worse-under-his-watch.html

Well DUH... for small crimes the police are 100% useless, so why even bother to report them.

Its not like crime rates falling, its the reporting of crime that is actually falling.

So many statistics and so little insight delivered! Not only are many crimes not reported, the statistics for reported crimes often never appear because there were no charges or convictions due to diversion or police decisions not to charge.

It is clear to me that crime is more prevalent now. Ram raids were unheard of a few years ago. Gun crime used to be extremely rare but now common. Fewer people are going into the CBD because of the danger of violence and other destinations such as Newmarket and Sylvia Park are now becoming hostile, threatening locations that people are beginning to avoid.

sir1963

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#3113345 8-Aug-2023 14:31

tdgeek:

sir1963:

I have regularly voted for smaller parties because their policies agreed with my world view the most.

They may not have entered parliament, but not one of my votes was ever wasted.

The point is they will always be wasted as they will always fall under the 5%. So, reduce the 5% so more smaller parties can participate. Being small they wont roll any Government, but they will have a say. Which may be valid issues or making the government accountable

And until people will vote for them they will never be able to make 5%, but yes that limit needs to be lowered to probably 2%

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#3113443 8-Aug-2023 14:50

sir1963:

tdgeek:

The point is they will always be wasted as they will always fall under the 5%. So, reduce the 5% so more smaller parties can participate. Being small they wont roll any Government, but they will have a say. Which may be valid issues or making the government accountable

And until people will vote for them they will never be able to make 5%, but yes that limit needs to be lowered to probably 2%

Having a threshold too low would end up with fringe/crackpot candidates such as Brian Tamaki or Kyle Chapman being given a voice in parliament, which gives them a bigger platform from which to spread their bile. Having a threshold above 2% might go some way to keeping things a little more civil.

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Technofreak

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#3113445 8-Aug-2023 15:07

I think the current threshold is about right. If a new party is serious and shows promise they will pull themselves up above the threshold. It may take a couple of elections but they will get there.

This is why no vote is wasted. Even though your vote may not result in an elected representative this time, the fact you and others have voted for that party gives encouragement for them to continue and grow because there is support.

As has been mentioned having too low of a threshold will help provide a stage for the likes of Tamaki.

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ockel

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#3114433 11-Aug-2023 09:37

The Prime Minister said the “We probably don’t have enough tax in this country,” quote was taken out of context. It doesnt seem out of context in the debate - rather than focus on the quality of spending (like $40k for a farewell and $7.5k for a welcome) its about getting more tax in to allow more spending. Tax and spend, boys, tax and spend.

You'd have to fear for the farming community with a wealth tax. Plenty of large land swathes used for farming that would be above the Greens or Maori Party thresholds that would be taxed every year. And if they had dwellings for farm workers that werent occupied for 6 months or more, would the Maori Party tax them 33% pa on those dwellings?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300947990/tax-tape-released-see-damien-oconnors-response-to-wealth-tax-question

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SJB

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#3114439 11-Aug-2023 09:58

When considering the threshold, Israel might serve as an example not to follow.

The threshold is set at 3.25% and the current government consists of a right wing majority party and 5 nutjob parties. Some members of the lunatic fringe hold senior positions in the cabinet and the whole setup is designed to keep the current Prime Minister out of prison.

Although we are nowhere near that sort of setup here you cannot predict what might happen in the future. I'm sure there are many people who would say that the rhetoric from NZ political parties has got more extreme over the years and sometimes rhetoric turns into policy when in government.

ockel

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#3114573 11-Aug-2023 11:55

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

sen8or

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#3114647 11-Aug-2023 13:09

But its okay, Chippie has reassured us that it was taken out of context

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300947990/tax-tape-released-see-damien-oconnors-response-to-wealth-tax-question

They also objected to it being recorded and fought for it not to be released. I'm pleased we are dealing with the most open and transparent Govt, another Govt may have tried to put spin on the situation.......

mudguard

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#3114678 11-Aug-2023 14:50

ockel:

You'd have to fear for the farming community with a wealth tax. Plenty of large land swathes used for farming that would be above the Greens or Maori Party thresholds that would be taxed every year. And if they had dwellings for farm workers that werent occupied for 6 months or more, would the Maori Party tax them 33% pa on those dwellings?

I think it comes back to the question with some farms if they are actually businesses or they land banking in disguise? I should know but don't, but I wonder what the break even point is for dairy payouts? Obviously different for each farm, but there must be an average?

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#3114703 11-Aug-2023 15:42

Look, it's probably not unreasonable to assert there isn't enough tax - but I certainly would take umbrage if the suggestion is that more individual taxpayers should be paying more. Avoidance by corporates and religious groups would in my opinion be a very valid place to assert insufficient taxation.

ockel

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#3114709 11-Aug-2023 15:53

mudguard:

I think it comes back to the question with some farms if they are actually businesses or they land banking in disguise? I should know but don't, but I wonder what the break even point is for dairy payouts? Obviously different for each farm, but there must be an average?

With interest rates where they are and costs increasing over the last 12 months it has been quoted that the breakeven is $8/kg milk solids.

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

ockel

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#3114712 11-Aug-2023 16:00

Kyanar:

Look, it's probably not unreasonable to assert there isn't enough tax - but I certainly would take umbrage if the suggestion is that more individual taxpayers should be paying more. Avoidance by corporates and religious groups would in my opinion be a very valid place to assert insufficient taxation.

as was pointed out during the debate/discussion, this Government collected more in taxation than any Government in NZ history. And spent more than any other Government. There was a spending blip for Covid but instead of returning to trend the spending has just kept increasing off a higher base.

There isnt insufficient taxation (clearly given the numbers), there is inefficient spending.

We spend 50% more on healthcare (since 2017 excluding Covid spend), we dont have 50% increase in healthcare workers or a 50% increase in employee related costs in healthcare (or even a 50% mix across both). So where is the spending going?? There need to be Treasury razor gangs looking at where money is actually being spent and whether value for money is being derived.

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

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