2024 US Presidential election thread

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2degrees

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#3306536 7-Nov-2024 10:29

Sideface:

SaltyNZ: I think I have laid my cards fairly firmly on the table in regards to my opinion of, say, David Seymour. But I would vote for Seymour without hesitation if it was a choice between him and Donald Trump.

Well, yeah, I'm sure he's actually quite happy to see the billionaires choice in power (and even if he wasn't, he's hardly going to do anything other than congratulate). But he would still be the lesser evil in a contest between the two, and if you choose the third option of simply not voting you are sending the message that you are OK with either as the winner.

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johno1234

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#3306539 7-Nov-2024 10:34

Lots of billionaires support the Dems including Gates, Cuban and Soros… yet we keep hearing this billionaires complaint about Musk.

freitasm

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#3306540 7-Nov-2024 10:36

Some billionaires try helping, and some billionaires suck the life out of people.

I think Elon belongs to the second group.

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Wombat1

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#3306543 7-Nov-2024 10:40

I see where you guys are going with this. But here’s the thing, I’m not using 'woke' to label everything I don’t like, like some sort of catch-all for my personal dislikes.

It’s actually a word with a specific meaning in today’s culture. Some right-wing folks might use it to slap a label on anything that makes them uncomfortable, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a valid place in a conversation. It’s not all "right-wing rubbish", the term is actually used on both sides of the political spectrum.

Even used by vice President Kamala Harris in her public speeches, hence my previous comment.

Kamala Harris says ‘everybody needs to be woke’ in 2017 video that may haunt her campaign - YouTube

johno1234

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#3306544 7-Nov-2024 10:42

Many left leaners call right of centre views “fascist” or “nazi”. Idiotic, hyperbole name calling is rife on both sides of the spectrum.

sen8or

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#3306546 7-Nov-2024 10:52

There are always extremes at both ends of the spectrum, rich billionaires who will do anything to avoid paying taxes and those at the other end who will avoid doing anything for themselves and demand handouts, I'd like to think that this covers a very very small percentage of the population at either end, yet both sides use the extremes as examples.

Trump was full of bluster and hot air before he got elected in 2016, some of what he said came to fruition, some just quietly slipped away in a few news cycles. Hopefully the states don't implode with too much civil unrest.

ezbee

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#3306556 7-Nov-2024 11:08

Change may be coming for Germany as well.
Lessons learnt in Trumps win may help remake Europe?

freitasm

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#3306559 7-Nov-2024 11:15

Wombat1:

I see where you guys are going with this. But here’s the thing, I’m not using 'woke' to label everything I don’t like, like some sort of catch-all for my personal dislikes.

It’s actually a word with a specific meaning in today’s culture. Some right-wing folks might use it to slap a label on anything that makes them uncomfortable, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a valid place in a conversation. It’s not all "right-wing rubbish", the term is actually used on both sides of the political spectrum.

Even used by vice President Kamala Harris in her public speeches, hence my previous comment.

Kamala Harris says ‘everybody needs to be woke’ in 2017 video that may haunt her campaign - YouTube

Ok, you claim not many kiwis know the word. But the word's been used since the 1930s. And in the current context (not the right-wing use), woke is a person that is aware of social injustice and inequality.

I'd even say that right-wing people co-opting the word woke, which is of African-American origin, shows a bit of racism, too.

Now if anyone thinks being a decent human is not something people should aspire to, then we have a problem.

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freitasm

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#3306560 7-Nov-2024 11:19

johno1234: Many left leaners call right of centre views “fascist” or “nazi”. Idiotic, hyperbole name calling is rife on both sides of the spectrum.

I disagree. Not all right views are fascist or nazi. I don't see people calling National "fascists".

But if one starts using fascist tropes, the logic next step is to see the person as a fascist.

In the case of polarised American politics, I think Trump and Trumpism shows all the characteristics below:

The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”

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quickymart

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#3306563 7-Nov-2024 11:43

johno1234: Lots of billionaires support the Dems including ...Soros…

Okay, admit all the depressing news this morning, this story on anti-Trump site The Bulwark actually made laugh out loud just now (something I needed):

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/what-will-trumps-win-mean

WHERE’S GEORGE SOROS WHEN YOU NEED HIM?: Are we allowed a couple little laughs amid the blackness? First, it sure is remarkable how Democrats—four years after supposedly conjuring millions of fraudulent Biden ballots in the dead of night to sweep Donald Trump out of power—completely failed to do the same this cycle. Our dastardly elites who can steal elections at will really dropped the ball!

😀

sudo

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#3306585 7-Nov-2024 12:52

freitasm:

Ok, you claim not many kiwis know the word. But the word's been used since the 1930s. And in the current context (not the right-wing use), woke is a person that is aware of social injustice and inequality.

I'd even say that right-wing people co-opting the word woke, which is of African-American origin, shows a bit of racism, too.

Now if anyone thinks being a decent human is not something people should aspire to, then we have a problem.

The original term had a different meaning that changed over the years. It was actually co-opted (re-branded as a hashtag) by the left, then by BLM, during the last decade. It wasn't a slur.

It was only during the latter part of the first Trump administration, the trolling of wokeness and then the anti-woke/SJW sentiment, became prevalent.

It had the same broad modern meaning (associated with the social justice ideology), but it was viewed by the right as negative.

In a similar way "liberal" is also viewed as a political insult.

BTW there's a whole series of memes on those type of political insults ...

Paul1977

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#3306586 7-Nov-2024 12:57

Will the Democrats finally learn their lesson? Their near decade long strategy of "the other guy is worse" has always been terrible. And now not only has it lost them the Presidency and the Senate, but it's lost them the popular vote for the first time in 20 years as well (and probably the House of Representatives).

Middle America believes they've been abandoned by the Democrats. True or false, the Democrats have failed miserably to convince them otherwise.

I saw a regular Republican voter interviewed the other day. I'm paraphrasing, but he essentially said "I don't like Trump, he has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. But the other side are socialists". In a contest of vilifying the other team, the Republicans are better at it.

I've been saying it for years - the Democrats need to put forwards a candidate that people will vote FOR. In 2008 and 2012 Democrats voted FOR Barack Obama. In 2016, 2020, and 2024 nobody voted for Clinton, Biden, or Harris; they voted AGAINST Trump. The Democrats just don't seem to understand the difference.

sen8or

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#3306589 7-Nov-2024 13:03

Play the ball, not the man?

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#3306591 7-Nov-2024 13:12

Paul1977:

Will the Democrats finally learn their lesson? Their near decade long strategy of "the other guy is worse" has always been terrible. And now not only has it lost them the Presidency and the Senate, but it's lost them the popular vote for the first time in 20 years as well (and probably the House of Representatives).

Middle America believes they've been abandoned by the Democrats. True or false, the Democrats have failed miserably to convince them otherwise.

I saw a regular Republican voter interviewed the other day. I'm paraphrasing, but he essentially said "I don't like Trump, he has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. But the other side are socialists". In a contest of vilifying the other team, the Republicans are better at it.

I've been saying it for years - the Democrats need to put forwards a candidate that people will vote FOR. In 2008 and 2012 Democrats voted FOR Barack Obama. In 2016, 2020, and 2024 nobody voted for Clinton, Biden, or Harris; they voted AGAINST Trump. The Democrats just don't seem to understand the difference.

it's called the (Democratic) Establishment. the people don't want the Establishment - showed it at Clinton vs Trump. when Bernie was sweeping the the Democratic nomination in 2020 the Establishment once again killed him off and installed Biden. It worked then. This time they installed Harris. Didn't work. There is no people's choice. Establishment decides.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/31/bernie-sanders-election-trump-democratic-establishment

https://jacobin.com/2020/03/democratic-establishment-joe-biden-2020-election-sanders

ezbee

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#3306601 7-Nov-2024 13:47

Aileen Cannon has competion for AG.

Potential Trump AG: I Want to Drag Dem ‘Bodies Through the Streets’
https://news.yahoo.com/news/potential-trump-ag-want-drag-233358425.html

""
“Here’s my current mood,” Davis wrote on X Wednesday morning. “I want to drag their dead political bodies through the streets, burn them, and throw them off the wall. (Legally, politically, and financially, of course.)“
""
In the past, Davis has said he wants to imprison journalists in “gulags,”
""
“F--- unity. We have the votes. And they tried to kill Trump,”
""

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