NZ 2023 Election Thread

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Uber Geek

#3116085 15-Aug-2023 12:24

sen8or:

And the experts agree, GST free fruit and veges is a dog of an idea

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/new-zealand-tax-experts-respond-to-gst-free-fruit-and-vegetables/EVZXXQYZSJH35BQCZZW2ADSSZE/

Probably the first time I have seen Susan St john and Don Brash agreeing on something :)

If you want to know how bat-$hit crazy the edge cases around food tax will get, have a look at this one from the UK..

https://www.rossmartin.co.uk/vat/vat-cases/6539-vat-mega-marshmallows-are-not-confectionery#:~:text=In%20Innovative%20Bites%20Limited%20v,zero%2Drated%20for%20VAT%20purposes.

Currently these Marshmellows are subject to 20% VAT as confectionary

But these "mega" sized one are 0 rated, as they are accepted as being an ingredient to make s'mores...

Although the tax lawyers appear to making more money as the tribunal decision has been appealed to a higher court

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tdgeek

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#3116090 15-Aug-2023 12:37

While I disagree re the vege fruit GST, its pretty simple. Fresh or frozen, that's it. Fresh brocolli, frozen peas, or frozen berries, or fresh berries. Can't really get much simpler to administer

Essentially its a tax cuit for all Kiwi's based on how much fresh stuff you consume. It's hardly well targeted to those that need help

ockel

1949 posts

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#3116095 15-Aug-2023 12:43

tdgeek:

Chris Luxon stated not long back that National is open to GST off veges and fruit. But the real story is despite all our woes, the election is about buying votes. Labour offers a silly offer, which on paper sounds good. National then become open to it. They are both silly. I thought NZ had housing, inflation, health, education, infrastructure issues? Maybe not. They are both spending up on lollies.

And equally important is how those lollies are paid for. Some of this tax cut (which mustnt be inflationary as nothing Labour does is inflationary but if National cuts taxes it is inflationary) is being paid for by re-taxing commercial and industrial property owners. The balance is coming from operational allowances - in other words its already provided for in the budget.

So does this mean that Labour over-inflated its spending in the Budget to already allow for this tax cut? Or will it be re-allocating from within the operational allowance (meaning other areas of spending will get less (ie a cut in spending relative to whats been Budgeted))? Or will our ballooning debt get even larger (by the tune of $1.5bn in 4 years time, and growing at 0.5bn pa thereafter)?

All to line the corporate pockets of the supermarkets that they have been complaining about? I cant wait to see the Treasury report on this tax cut - the last Treasury Report on cutting the prescription charges estimated that $70m of the $700m cost would accrue to the big-box pharmacists.

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

ockel

1949 posts

Uber Geek

#3116105 15-Aug-2023 12:52

tdgeek:

While I disagree re the vege fruit GST, its pretty simple. Fresh or frozen, that's it. Fresh brocolli, frozen peas, or frozen berries, or fresh berries. Can't really get much simpler to administer

Essentially its a tax cuit for all Kiwi's based on how much fresh stuff you consume. It's hardly well targeted to those that need help

But the Prime Minister says cut herbs will be GST free however couldnt confirm that basil plants (sold at supermarkets as fresh herbs) would be GST free. One would imagine that they cant be GST free as then all edible plants sold at plant shops would have to be.....

Sun dried tomatoes? yay or nay? Oranges yes but freshly squeezed oranges (no added ingredients but processed) not. However corn off the cob, which is as processed as freshly squeezed oranges, is GST free.

You say its simple, but the lawyers would say its not that simple. Yay for the objective supermarket ombudsman who can make these definitive rulings.

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

sir1963

2276 posts

Uber Geek

#3116106 15-Aug-2023 12:56

tdgeek:

While I disagree re the vege fruit GST, its pretty simple. Fresh or frozen, that's it. Fresh brocolli, frozen peas, or frozen berries, or fresh berries. Can't really get much simpler to administer

Essentially its a tax cuit for all Kiwi's based on how much fresh stuff you consume. It's hardly well targeted to those that need help

Fresh Truffles ?

Fresh Bluff Oysters ?

Fresh Wagyu rump ?

tdgeek

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#3116117 15-Aug-2023 13:17

ockel:

But the Prime Minister says cut herbs will be GST free however couldnt confirm that basil plants (sold at supermarkets as fresh herbs) would be GST free. One would imagine that they cant be GST free as then all edible plants sold at plant shops would have to be.....

Sun dried tomatoes? yay or nay? Oranges yes but freshly squeezed oranges (no added ingredients but processed) not. However corn off the cob, which is as processed as freshly squeezed oranges, is GST free.

You say its simple, but the lawyers would say its not that simple. Yay for the objective supermarket ombudsman who can make these definitive rulings.

Its widely implemented overseas, and they have all these issues, and massively more. Fresh amnd frozen is much much easier. I'm not aware of a basil discussion, but he has stated that edge cases would be looked at, and obviously there won't be many

What has Chris Luxon said about basil?

While its widespread overseas, its a bad policy, we all know that. But right now, its on the table for National and Labour.

sen8or

1611 posts

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#3116170 15-Aug-2023 13:34

I shouldn't really complain about this, its one of the few labour policies I will personally gain from, its the flip side of the equation that worries me more. We know labour will hit us harder in the pocket somewhere else, its what they do (acknowledged, theres no such thing as a free lunch).....

ockel

1949 posts

Uber Geek

#3116175 15-Aug-2023 13:45

sen8or:

I shouldn't really complain about this, its one of the few labour policies I will personally gain from, its the flip side of the equation that worries me more. We know labour will hit us harder in the pocket somewhere else, its what they do (acknowledged, theres no such thing as a free lunch).....

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

ockel

1949 posts

Uber Geek

#3116179 15-Aug-2023 13:50

tdgeek:

ockel:

But the Prime Minister says cut herbs will be GST free however couldnt confirm that basil plants (sold at supermarkets as fresh herbs) would be GST free. One would imagine that they cant be GST free as then all edible plants sold at plant shops would have to be.....

Sun dried tomatoes? yay or nay? Oranges yes but freshly squeezed oranges (no added ingredients but processed) not. However corn off the cob, which is as processed as freshly squeezed oranges, is GST free.

You say its simple, but the lawyers would say its not that simple. Yay for the objective supermarket ombudsman who can make these definitive rulings.

Its widely implemented overseas, and they have all these issues, and massively more. Fresh amnd frozen is much much easier. I'm not aware of a basil discussion, but he has stated that edge cases would be looked at, and obviously there won't be many

What has Chris Luxon said about basil?

While its widespread overseas, its a bad policy, we all know that. But right now, its on the table for National and Labour.

So the best thing is - dont copy overseas jurisdictions where they have these issues and massively more. Abandon a bad policy that everyone (other than Labour, Greens and the Maori Party) thinks is a bad idea, including the Labour party economists (the CTU). Instead of listening to advice from experts around the world the tone deaf Labour party is going to forge ahead.

And there will be many many "edge cases". many.

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

Rikkitic

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#3116181 15-Aug-2023 13:52

Lawyers and politicians always want to make simple things complicated. Just appoint a referee with dictatorial powers to make decisions on grey areas, no appeal, no discussion. The referee can be impeached if he is bribed but that is all. Hair splitters are always trying to make perfect the enemy of good. It doesn't have to be 100% consistent. It just has to be common sense reasonable in the majority of cases.

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tdgeek

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#3116183 15-Aug-2023 13:55

ockel:

So the best thing is - dont copy overseas jurisdictions where they have these issues and massively more. Abandon a bad policy that everyone (other than Labour, Greens and the Maori Party) thinks is a bad idea, including the Labour party economists (the CTU). Instead of listening to advice from experts around the world the tone deaf Labour party is going to forge ahead.

And there will be many many "edge cases". many.

Agree, apart from being many edge cases. Herbs for example are gst free if sold by a food supplier (supeys, dairy, etc) not from other suppliers like garden centres

Orange juice with no additives, dunno, so make a call, yes or no, thats it

But just remember, National is open to it too, so its effectively a bi partisan topic of sorts

sir1963

2276 posts

Uber Geek

#3116188 15-Aug-2023 14:05

sen8or:

I shouldn't really complain about this, its one of the few labour policies I will personally gain from, its the flip side of the equation that worries me more. We know labour will hit us harder in the pocket somewhere else, its what they do (acknowledged, theres no such thing as a free lunch).....

will you actually gain from it ?

The administration costs and compliance costs will eat any savings, and may end up costing more in the end.

GV27

5429 posts

Uber Geek

#3116193 15-Aug-2023 14:16

Rikkitic:

Lawyers and politicians always want to make simple things complicated. Just appoint a referee with dictatorial powers to make decisions on grey areas, no appeal, no discussion. The referee can be impeached if he is bribed but that is all. Hair splitters are always trying to make perfect the enemy of good. It doesn't have to be 100% consistent. It just has to be common sense reasonable in the majority of cases.

The solution to bad law-making isn't less scrutiny, it's more.

Technofreak

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#3116195 15-Aug-2023 14:17

sir1963:

sen8or:

I shouldn't really complain about this, its one of the few labour policies I will personally gain from, its the flip side of the equation that worries me more. We know labour will hit us harder in the pocket somewhere else, its what they do (acknowledged, theres no such thing as a free lunch).....

will you actually gain from it ?

The administration costs and compliance costs will eat any savings, and may end up costing more in the end.

Agree, how much will anyone actually save. It will be almost impossible to measure. It's out and out a con to buy votes, relying on the fact that most voters won't think it through and think it's a really good idea. Hopefully the average voter is smarter than Labour is banking on.

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Technofreak

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#3116197 15-Aug-2023 14:22

tdgeek:

ockel:

So the best thing is - dont copy overseas jurisdictions where they have these issues and massively more. Abandon a bad policy that everyone (other than Labour, Greens and the Maori Party) thinks is a bad idea, including the Labour party economists (the CTU). Instead of listening to advice from experts around the world the tone deaf Labour party is going to forge ahead.

And there will be many many "edge cases". many.

Agree, apart from being many edge cases. Herbs for example are gst free if sold by a food supplier (supeys, dairy, etc) not from other suppliers like garden centres

Orange juice with no additives, dunno, so make a call, yes or no, thats it

But just remember, National is open to it too, so its effectively a bi partisan topic of sorts

There will be many edge cases. There will be plenty of producers trying to find a way to get the GST content off their product in order to gain more sales. There will be all sorts of antics employed to make a product fit in the no GST box.

National may not have ruled it out but I doubt very much they have any serious plan to implement it. Right now they probably see that there's a large portion of the population who think it's a good idea and they won't won't to alienate them.

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