NZ 2023 Election Thread

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1949 posts

Uber Geek

#3116434 15-Aug-2023 20:45

tdgeek:

I get that. Ive read that in my searches to satisfy Ockel. What I read is what I read, it wasnt a "mistake" or a "misinterpretation". I read it. After the leak (maybe days) and well before the official announcement.

Yes, I agree, when I searched I cannot find it. It was after the leak, so no biggie to me at the time as I stated why. And well before the official announcement. As I alluded to, it meant little to me for the reasons I stated. Quite a good voter policy so we will go with it, to not be seen as negative. Now, not so much. Although globally its been implemented heavily.

In short I feel a bit miffed as if some feel what I posted was a lie, but what can I say? I DID read it, not surprised, thought little about it. But if anyone feels I was lying or making things up, just say so.

Please dont feel that some might think what you posted was a lie, mistake or misinterpretation. Plenty of times I've read something and cant put my search fingers on it again. It just seemed completely incongruous with statements from the National Party - but they havent announced any policy so its plausible. Its like Labour party members stating things like as a country we're not taxed enough - its a statement but is it policy? Should one constantly remind its MP's that is the election catchphrase (even tho Tova says its a terrible election slogan) or should one rely on party policy for gospel?

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ockel

1949 posts

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#3116436 15-Aug-2023 20:47

tdgeek:

All partners? Assume you mean LGBT etc partners? I would assume so. But my mindset is that we have a lot of issues, and IMHO many many are global, but many are NZ historical. But this election we seem more consumed by fruit and veggies, roads that will not reduce congestion, but they will get rid of more oil...

Up till the 2016 election I was 50/50 National and Labour voter, plus the odd soiree to Greens, or no one. This election there is nobody to vote for. Literally. Greens yes, if you can cancel x amount of their policies. They do have some very good policies. Yes, elections gather lollies, but IMHO, this election is like no other. More issues than ever before, yet more lollies than ever before. Yet the today and future funding for health, education, infratstructure, inflation, housing, is nowhere to be seen.

I think the point was if you're a step father or half step father does that make you eligble for paid parental leave? Do you need to be the baby daddy or just part of the non-nuclear family?

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tdgeek

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#3116437 15-Aug-2023 21:04

ockel:

Please dont feel that some might think what you posted was a lie, mistake or misinterpretation. Plenty of times I've read something and cant put my search fingers on it again. It just seemed completely incongruous with statements from the National Party - but they havent announced any policy so its plausible. Its like Labour party members stating things like as a country we're not taxed enough - its a statement but is it policy? Should one constantly remind its MP's that is the election catchphrase (even tho Tova says its a terrible election slogan) or should one rely on party policy for gospel?

Appreciate that. Yes its plausible, so at the time, yes not surprised. Its politics. But Im still miffed I cannot find it!

Technofreak

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#3116439 15-Aug-2023 21:09

tdgeek:

Technofreak:

I was taking your word for it when you said National was open to the idea of removing GST from fresh fruit and veg. Hence my thoughts on that "openess".

I cannot find anything that suggests National is open to the idea at all. In fact in two places this article strongly suggests the opposite.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labour-leaks-national-reveals-labours-tax-policy-gst-off-fresh-fruit-and-vegetables-dubbed-boondoggle-by-grant-robertson/LDS32AKYPJFPJG5PNA55QYIOPI/

"Willis warned the tax would hand millions to some of the country’s largest and most profitable companies who would absorb the cut, and fatten their margins."

and

"Of all the parties in Parliament, only Te Pāti Māori backed the GST policy, but it wants to go further, taking GST off all food."

I get that. Ive read that in my searches to satisfy Ockel. What I read is what I read, it wasnt a "mistake" or a "misinterpretation". I read it. After the leak (maybe days) and well before the official announcement.

Yes, I agree, when I searched I cannot find it. It was after the leak, so no biggie to me at the time as I stated why. And well before the official announcement. As I alluded to, it meant little to me for the reasons I stated. Quite a good voter policy so we will go with it, to not be seen as negative. Now, not so much. Although globally its been implemented heavily.

In short I feel a bit miffed as if some feel what I posted was a lie, but what can I say? I DID read it, not surprised, thought little about it. But if anyone feels I was lying or making things up, just say so.

Please don't think I thought you were lying or made it up. I think I know you well enough from what I've seen of your posts on Geekzone to know you are genuine. We can all think of times where we've seen something then not been able to find it later.

My comment was to illustrate that rather than having seen the same information I had taken your word, which in itself is an acknowledgement of the fact I didn't think you made it up. It wasn't till others started asking questions that I bothered to do my own research.

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tdgeek

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#3116485 15-Aug-2023 21:12

ockel:

I think the point was if you're a step father or half step father does that make you eligble for paid parental leave? Do you need to be the baby daddy or just part of the non-nuclear family?

Yes, not dissimilar to Labours fruit and vege fiasco (although personally seems simple to me, although I disagree with it)

As I am seeing with this election its all lollies blazing. The fruit/veges or parental leave with its own variables as you mentioned is yet another unthought of policy. Probably a "good" policy, but its lost when the variables are nowhere to be seen.

What I was hoping for from either party was, "its hard, we cannot give you lollies and the next few years will not be easy, so all of us need to hunker down" But its the complete opposite, all I see is liquorice allsorts for all of us. This is aimed at both parties. Times like this is when Winston, Greens and ACT may well be prime time on 14 Oct

Technofreak

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#3116494 15-Aug-2023 21:42

tdgeek:

What I was hoping for from either party was, "its hard, we cannot give you lollies and the next few years will not be easy, so all of us need to hunker down" But its the complete opposite, all I see is liquorice allsorts for all of us. This is aimed at both parties. Times like this is when Winston, Greens and ACT may well be prime time on 14 Oct

Unfortunately I think we're living in an era where there's too many people who are looking to be be insulted/aggrieved/disadvantaged. As a consequence no one is prepared to put a stake in the ground for fear upsetting a snowflake.

I for one am looking forward to someone standing up and showing some spine and leadership and being bit more forthright.

EDIT: I cannot say this enough times and incase someone missed my prevous posts on Winston Raymond Peters, heaven help us if Winston ever gets the chance to be part of the next government.

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sen8or

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#3116548 16-Aug-2023 08:03

tdgeek:

What I was hoping for from either party was, "its hard, we cannot give you lollies and the next few years will not be easy, so all of us need to hunker down" But its the complete opposite, all I see is liquorice allsorts for all of us. This is aimed at both parties. Times like this is when Winston, Greens and ACT may well be prime time on 14 Oct

What you're essentially saying is that a party should campaign on an austerity package, whilst the pragmatic would agree, every bleeding heart would be all over social (and mainstream) media with Jane, single mother of 12 complaining she will no longer be able to feed and clothe her kids because X party is looking to reduce services/welfare.

So much money is spent on families who continue to reproduce kids they couldn't afford in the first place, like society owes them for their own choices. The more money fed into these systems (and I don't think children should be cold/hungry/poorly housed etc) the less there is for widespread needs like education, health and infrastructure. Cost of living and cost of children should begin being taught in schools early.

GV27

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#3116550 16-Aug-2023 08:06

sen8or:

Cost of living and cost of children should begin being taught in schools early.

There's a bit of a reality check for everyone when it comes to the 'cost of children'. You've got middle class professionals who can't afford to have families if they want to own a home. If the aim is that no one has kids they can 'afford' then only the richest and most well-heeled in our society would be accepted as being able to breed. It all gets a bit 'Logan's Run' after a while.

sir1963

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#3116561 16-Aug-2023 08:51

GV27:

sen8or:

Cost of living and cost of children should begin being taught in schools early.

There's a bit of a reality check for everyone when it comes to the 'cost of children'. You've got middle class professionals who can't afford to have families if they want to own a home. If the aim is that no one has kids they can 'afford' then only the richest and most well-heeled in our society would be accepted as being able to breed. It all gets a bit 'Logan's Run' after a while.

That being said we should also have free contraception available to both men and women.

Vasectomies should be free, it is a cheaper long term solution for couples who do not want children/more children, and its a far safer/cheaper procedure than tubal ligation.

Sex education including the use of contraception should be taught at ALL schools, including religious schools, preferably by independent health professionals who will ensure it is taught properly with zero religious guilt attached to it.
"there are contraceptives, but if you use those you will burn in hell"

Technofreak

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#3116969 17-Aug-2023 08:17

Mike Hosking on point. Unfortunately paywalled.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/mike-hosking-election-2023-chris-hipkins-winston-peters-as-bad-as-each-other/QSJTVC52SBENBDKSU3KKZV5AQM/

Main points.

Peters and Hipkins prepared to say what ever it takes to get votes.
Minor parties can say whatever they like around policy as they know there's pretty well a snowballs chance in hell they will never need to deliver.
We need some strong leadership.

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quickymart

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#3117047 17-Aug-2023 10:04

I think Luxon is in the same boat (saying anything to win votes), but I would expect someone like Hosking to overlook/ignore any criticism of the National party.

Kyanar

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#3117051 17-Aug-2023 10:12

I'm not sure which of the two upcoming General Elections I'm eligible to vote in I am looking forward to least - New Zealand or Australia. Both countries seem to have a government that just doesn't seem to be able to deliver on the promises made last election, and an opposition whose only policy platform seems to be "we're not those guys".

tdgeek

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#3117083 17-Aug-2023 11:13

quickymart:

I think Luxon is in the same boat (saying anything to win votes), but I would expect someone like Hosking to overlook/ignore any criticism of the National party.

Correct, and I also agree with Technofreaks and Kyanars nearby posts

Both parties are getting silly with silly promises. Both are at odds with their significant coalition partners. Now I read Peters puts up a campaign posted at a Seymour St (or Rd, didn't read it, too childish)

Now, decades and decades ago, till now. Kicking the cans. I don't see that all parties that governed previously are stupid. Yet, why are so many sectors running down? IMHO, our economy is too small, and our population to spread out to keep up. We either need more taxes or more people. The former is a no-no, the latter is also problematic as so many sectors cannot manage what we have now, let alone more people. Chicken and the egg scenario. No party wants to admit defeat or that they are part of the ongoing running down process. And to be fair, they aren't, they inherit someone else's past, decades in the making.

In short I imagine the parties have a quiet "it is what it is" stance on all these key sectors, and individuals have a far higher priority on their own lives than stats on infrastructure, housing, health and education. (obviously except those entrenched in those sectors). So, we have vague promises to do 30 year things, but lets focus on what the voters want today.

SirHumphreyAppleby

2527 posts

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#3117092 17-Aug-2023 11:35

tdgeek:

Yet, why are so many sectors running down? IMHO, our economy is too small, and our population to spread out to keep up. We either need more taxes or more people.

I don't see how either is a solution. New Zealand used to be much more self-sufficient with a fraction of the population and without all the waste.

ockel

1949 posts

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#3117102 17-Aug-2023 11:40

tdgeek:

Correct, and I also agree with Technofreaks and Kyanars nearby posts

Both parties are getting silly with silly promises. Both are at odds with their significant coalition partners. Now I read Peters puts up a campaign posted at a Seymour St (or Rd, didn't read it, too childish)

Now, decades and decades ago, till now. Kicking the cans. I don't see that all parties that governed previously are stupid. Yet, why are so many sectors running down? IMHO, our economy is too small, and our population to spread out to keep up. We either need more taxes or more people. The former is a no-no, the latter is also problematic as so many sectors cannot manage what we have now, let alone more people. Chicken and the egg scenario. No party wants to admit defeat or that they are part of the ongoing running down process. And to be fair, they aren't, they inherit someone else's past, decades in the making.

In short I imagine the parties have a quiet "it is what it is" stance on all these key sectors, and individuals have a far higher priority on their own lives than stats on infrastructure, housing, health and education. (obviously except those entrenched in those sectors). So, we have vague promises to do 30 year things, but lets focus on what the voters want today.

Once again you ignore the third option which is to make sure that what is spent is spent wisely. And when things get tough you spend more time looking line-by-line at budgets and ask if this is really necessary.

Farmers have seen prices slide at the GDT this week. To 5 year lows. With higher interest rates and higher costs the average farm is now going to make a loss of $200k this year. Rather than borrow more (like the Government has continued to do following Covid) farmers are going line by line through the budget to see what they can reduce such that they breakeven or minimise their losses.

We NEED that sort of financial rigour from our public servants that are happy to spend other peoples money with seemingly little regard. All the people added in Covid roles during the crisis should have been cut from payrolls as the crisis has rolled off. Some are still doing covid work (why?) while many are redeployed elsewhere. 15,000 Govt employees added in 6 years - to do what? What exactly have those people improved? But NZ is no different to other areas, some economists believe that the reason we're not seeing unemployment spike in developed countries while we have declining output and productivity is because the jobs added have been predominately in the public sector and no corresponding reduction in headcount during economic slowdown.

Spend smarter, not higher taxes, not more people. Spend smarter.

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

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