NZ 2023 Election Thread

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441 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3124705 7-Sep-2023 16:48

sen8or:

Their numbers on the foreign investors tax seems optimistic.

I get the part on putting our "climate change" money back into NZ in the short term, no sense trying to save the world if our own house isn't in order, but politically (and being a good global citizen), with the current political climate globally, it seems a bit short sighted.

What money?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/132885845/carbon-credit-auction-fails-again-depriving-treasury-of-about-900-million

There's another one for the ever deepening fiscal hole.

Mixing metaphors, but turn the hole through 90 degrees and there'll be plenty of room to drive all the mythical "improved public transport" buses through.

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

sen8or

1605 posts

Uber Geek

#3124714 7-Sep-2023 17:05

evilengineer:

What money?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/132885845/carbon-credit-auction-fails-again-depriving-treasury-of-about-900-million

There's another one for the ever deepening fiscal hole.

Mixing metaphors, but turn the hole through 90 degrees and there'll be plenty of room to drive all the mythical "improved public transport" buses through.

interesting.

I know that there is a secondary market for carbon credits on the Govts clean car standards for importers. NZTA are charging $36/kg for new cars and $18/kg for used based on excess carbon emissions over an allowance. Substantial discounts are available through importers of EVs for both new and used (you can't use new for used or used for new credits) and we have used this market ourselves.

$900mio seems well out of proportion for what we should be spending on climate change (if we are to contribute to the carbon fund, we should only contribute proportionally to our actual carbon emissions, about .2%, so +/- $200mio). Whos fiscal hole is it though, existing Govts (has GR already pre-spent the money), incoming (assume National) or both?

evilengineer

441 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3124715 7-Sep-2023 17:05

sen8or:

i don't think theres much doubt that there is plenty of fat that can be trimmed from Labours spending (especially "consultants"), but is it enough to be material before spending cuts actually have a negative impact on services?

Everybody hates consultants, but try building a school, hospital or "Road of National Significance" without Architects and Engineers.

Just sayin'. 😁

sen8or:

Everyone is hurting (well, many) with high cost of the basics (food, transport, accommodation) and the appeal of an extra bit in the back pocket for even the minimum wage worker is high (about $10/week) but the reality of that is that it will barely be noticed and certainly not likely to make a significant improvement to some ones personal financial position.

Yep. And if wages go up $10 then the landlords will put up their rent by $15.

The idea being pedaled by National that if Landlord's "costs" are reduced by bring back interest deductibility that rents will come down is absolutely farcical. They'll just pocket the difference and put the rent up as much as the market can bear anyway.

Also, as soon as they get in expect National to start telling us that minimum wage increases are "unaffordable" to justify a freeze.

We're heading straight back to the "good old days" of pumping the housing market, suppressing wages and no doubt further "liberalisation" of the immigration system to "grow" the economy.

Frickin' awesome!

GV27

5429 posts

Uber Geek

#3124864 8-Sep-2023 06:11

evilengineer:

We're heading straight back to the "good old days" of pumping the housing market, suppressing wages and no doubt further "liberalisation" of the immigration system to "grow" the economy.

Frickin' awesome!

What do you mean "back there"? House prices went up by 30% under this government. Migration numbers have blown out under this government.

We are already going through the crisis that people are trying to suggest only National could possibly cause.

tdgeek

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#3124871 8-Sep-2023 06:51

GV27:

evilengineer:

We're heading straight back to the "good old days" of pumping the housing market, suppressing wages and no doubt further "liberalisation" of the immigration system to "grow" the economy.

Frickin' awesome!

What do you mean "back there"? House prices went up by 30% under this government. Migration numbers have blown out under this government.

We are already going through the crisis that people are trying to suggest only National could possibly cause.

Its worse, Global house prices went up by 30% under this government. Global inflation went up under this government. Not sure why...

NZ has apparently prided itself on being a low wage economy. The world nearly ended when the minimum wage was increased under this government by $1-20. Its no wonder people leave, as they have always done. National and Labour contributed to this crisis, been like that for decades. Exacerbated by a couple of other things, ok they are just excuses, so therefore of low relevance.

sen8or

1605 posts

Uber Geek

#3124895 8-Sep-2023 08:06

evilengineer:

Everybody hates consultants, but try building a school, hospital or "Road of National Significance" without Architects and Engineers.

Just sayin'. 😁

Having worked in an industry that was involved with school construction projects, consultants certainly do know how to increase costs :)

I can see no convincing argument why a dali lighting system with up/down led light bars worth multiple tens of thousands of dollars per room is required when normal led lights and a switch costing a fraction will suffice, yet thats what is specified by "consultants" (who know doubt got wined and dined by the lighting / electrical companies to only recommend their products)....,

And thats not the sort of consultants that national are referring to, its the sort that Labour use when trying what to decide what catering to have at their next caucus meeting :)

GV27

5429 posts

Uber Geek

#3124905 8-Sep-2023 08:28

tdgeek:

Its worse, Global house prices went up by 30% under this government. Global inflation went up under this government. Not sure why...

You keep trying to suggest that because prices for things went up globally that we should ignore all the huge mistakes we made here. It's not a strong argument.

quickymart

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#3124912 8-Sep-2023 08:40

I'm just back from a holiday in the South Island and noticed a lot of anti-Labour sentiment there. People aren't too enthused about National either - but Act seemed quite popular, especially in the farming areas I visited.

tdgeek

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#3124922 8-Sep-2023 09:12

GV27:

You keep trying to suggest that because prices for things went up globally that we should ignore all the huge mistakes we made here. It's not a strong argument.

Its reality. You keep trying to suggest that all of the global and very significant factors pale into significance compared to Labour being the vastly dominant cause. You can consider everything Labour did as huge mistakes, but its very much a case of being backed into corners as was and is the case globally. It may be more productive to push National forward and explain how they would have one differently, in detail. But we never hear that, from anyone, National included. But thats ok, this election is not about winning its about bagging the Govt as superbly useless. Given Labour is the cause of all our ills, so its a local NZ problem, therefore easily fixed. If we can afford 14 billion to give 10 bucks a week tax cut for low wage singles, it wont be hard for National to be our next big thing. Affordable housing, better health, better education, better infrastructure, better climate mitigation, looking forward to it. No, Im not being nitpicky and shallow, everyone needs to look at the reality. But as this is an election thread, you need to push National forward and tell us what they will do better for all Kiwi's. Or, is it that National cannot win for what they can offer, so its all about making sure Labour loses? Same end result, just a different strategy that avoids commitment

GV27

5429 posts

Uber Geek

#3124925 8-Sep-2023 09:29

tdgeek:

Its reality. You keep trying to suggest that all of the global and very significant factors pale into significance compared to Labour being the vastly dominant cause. You can consider everything Labour did as huge mistakes, but its very much a case of being backed into corners as was and is the case globally.

No, I can consider it poor governance and oversight from a party with a shocking record when it comes to accountability and expectations around delivery. All issues pre-Covid, all directly affecting the decisions made in response and after it. And I'm not saying 100% that Labour caused those problems, but I don't buy the fact that other countries having similar inflation and housing issues as us means the underlying causes are the same in every single country.

But as I keep pointing out - we are a small country, we are not a reserve currency, we are always going to be at the mercy of external events. Governments need competent people to respond to them. That's part of their role. If you write off every mistake you get wrong as force majeure without even bothering to do basics like independent reviews (RBNZ specifically here) then what is the point of even having some of these core institutions? If Ministers won't hold them to account, should they be Ministers?

And with all due respect, I do not have to come up with reasons as to why National would be better before I am allowed to point out the government contesting our election is already delivering the crappy outcomes people are trying suggest is a possibility under National. Criticising the current government does mean I am automatically saying National is better, or that I'll even vote for National.

sen8or

1605 posts

Uber Geek

#3124927 8-Sep-2023 09:39

quickymart:

I'm just back from a holiday in the South Island and noticed a lot of anti-Labour sentiment there. People aren't too enthused about National either - but Act seemed quite popular, especially in the farming areas I visited.

Farmers backed labour last election as they knew National/Act would not get the numbers, so switched to Labour to try and keep the greens out. Will be interesting to see what happens to those areas swept away in the red wave last election, will the tide run out?

sen8or

1605 posts

Uber Geek

#3124928 8-Sep-2023 09:41

tdgeek:

Its reality. You keep trying to suggest that all of the global and very significant factors pale into significance compared to Labour being the vastly dominant cause.

Its a bit like a builder pointing at a crooked wall going, well, its pretty straight compared to the one that Joe Bloggs put up......

quickymart

11214 posts

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#3124948 8-Sep-2023 11:10

sen8or:

Farmers backed labour last election as they knew National/Act would not get the numbers, so switched to Labour to try and keep the greens out.

That was one of the exact reasons a guy I know (who lives rurally) explained to me why he voted for Labour in 2020. This election I wouldn't be surprised at all if he voted for Act.

sen8or

1605 posts

Uber Geek

#3124952 8-Sep-2023 11:26

quickymart:

sen8or:

Farmers backed labour last election as they knew National/Act would not get the numbers, so switched to Labour to try and keep the greens out.

That was one of the exact reasons a guy I know (who lives rurally) explained to me why he voted for Labour in 2020. This election I wouldn't be surprised at all if he voted for Act.

Its a bit anecdotal but I head the same from some local farmers and a rep for a farm supplies firm. Little more than talk around the water cooler, but the logic stacked up.

tdgeek

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#3124963 8-Sep-2023 12:17

GV27:

No, I can consider it poor governance and oversight from a party with a shocking record when it comes to accountability and expectations around delivery. All issues pre-Covid, all directly affecting the decisions made in response and after it. And I'm not saying 100% that Labour caused those problems, but I don't buy the fact that other countries having similar inflation and housing issues as us means the underlying causes are the same in every single country.

And with all due respect, I do not have to come up with reasons as to why National would be better before I am allowed to point out the government contesting our election is already delivering the crappy outcomes people are trying suggest is a possibility under National. Criticising the current government does mean I am automatically saying National is better, or that I'll even vote for National.

Bold 1

Pandemic and Ukraine were huge, so I disagree 100%

Bold 2

Ok, we can ignore National. Both parties can be critiqued. In the media lately they both are, but not so much here

Bold 3

Maybe they will be better, you can only look at who in the past was excellent and who now is (National Ministers/leaders). Thats a massive gulf. Perhaps you meant doesn't instead of does? does mean I am automatically. If so, my first sentence in Bold 3 applies. John Key/Bill English vs Chris Luxon and Nicola Willis. And thats before they started releasing promises that everyone is saying are full of holes, etc. Its not even a contest. Possibly why voters are escaping to the minor parties, and who may have a huge say going forward.

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