NZ 2023 Election Thread

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#3135392 27-Sep-2023 10:08

tdgeek:

Hipkins wont do it

It's a good thing that Hipkins has such a good track record that this is entirely believable and 100% something we can trust him on, like all the other things he has said done that were definitely correct and not just a way of turning something to his advantage at the time that later turned out to be plain wrong or just incorrect.

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quickymart

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#3135394 27-Sep-2023 10:11

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/whos-who-in-the-election-fringe-festival >> a detailed look at most of the fringe parties running in this election, although I don't know why most of them are even bothering, some are absolutely ridiculous (The Leighton Baker Party? Vain much?)

One I could think of missing from this list was Rock the Vote or whatever they were called, I think I saw one of their billboards the other day.

GV27

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#3135397 27-Sep-2023 10:16

From the Stuff liveblog:

“Labour will maintain income tax settings to provide consistency and certainty in these volatile times," he said.

Certainty for Robertson's spending program, not much certainty for households trying to cope with increasing inflation and the government snaffling up portions of their pay increases they might be lucky enough to get to cope with it.

I cannot put into words how much the arrogance of this statement infuriates me. It's socialise the losses and privatise the profits, but in reverse with government as the antagonists and households getting the short end of the stick.

It's also entirely contingent on PREFU which is a joke in itself. For all their crowing about National's 'holes' this is incredibly weak.

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#3135399 27-Sep-2023 10:19

@quickymart:

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/whos-who-in-the-election-fringe-festival >> a detailed look at most of the fringe parties running in this election, although I don't know why most of them are even bothering, some are absolutely ridiculous (The Leighton Baker Party? Vain much?)

One I could think of missing from this list was Rock the Vote or whatever they were called, I think I saw one of their billboards the other day.

This is the Rock the Vote description on Voters United:

"We will break our nation free from the grip of international organisations such as the United Nations, World Economic Forum and World Health Organisation, so that the people of New Zealand may control their own destiny, and we will reverse all divisive, race-based policies implemented by the Labour government. Rock The Vote NZ is a component party of the Freedoms NZ umbrella party."

On the same site, about New Zeal:

"We will stop the sexual grooming and indoctrination of our children in our schools and will dismantle the critical race theory and confused gender ideology."

So yes, all misguided and deplorable.

[EDIT: decided to link to the website because we need to bring these deplorables to light]

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tdgeek

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#3135414 27-Sep-2023 10:52

GV27:

It's a good thing that Hipkins has such a good track record that this is entirely believable and 100% something we can trust him on, like all the other things he has said done that were definitely correct and not just a way of turning something to his advantage at the time that later turned out to be plain wrong or just incorrect.

Maybe he is "good with numbers"...

tdgeek

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#3135416 27-Sep-2023 10:57

GV27:

From the Stuff liveblog:

“Labour will maintain income tax settings to provide consistency and certainty in these volatile times," he said.

Certainty for Robertson's spending program, not much certainty for households trying to cope with increasing inflation and the government snaffling up portions of their pay increases they might be lucky enough to get to cope with it.

I cannot put into words how much the arrogance of this statement infuriates me. It's socialise the losses and privatise the profits, but in reverse with government as the antagonists and households getting the short end of the stick.

It's also entirely contingent on PREFU which is a joke in itself. For all their crowing about National's 'holes' this is incredibly weak.

It would be simpler to say that currently you favour tax cuts over health, education, infrastraucture, etc etc and etc. You cannot have everything, and while Im not bagging tax cuts, its reality. People will vote for what they want. Some favour tax cuts some favour other things. But as long as no one, when national win on 14 Oct, complains about health education etc etc, then I'm fine with that. We know you are HEAVILY wanting tax cuts, thats fine. But just remember everything else is also important

GV27

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#3135447 27-Sep-2023 12:10

tdgeek:

It would be simpler to say that currently you favour tax cuts over health, education, infrastraucture, etc etc and etc. You cannot have everything, and while Im not bagging tax cuts, its reality. People will vote for what they want. Some favour tax cuts some favour other things. But as long as no one, when national win on 14 Oct, complains about health education etc etc, then I'm fine with that. We know you are HEAVILY wanting tax cuts, thats fine. But just remember everything else is also important

I am not 'heavily wanting a tax cut'.

I am wanting an end to tax increases by parties that do not seek a mandate from the electorate to do so.

They rely on the ignorance of voters who don't understand that the government wills inflation into existence through its agreement with RBNZ, but then refuses to adjust the taxes it collects from people on that basis. It is take with one hand, take with the other. It is a tax increase that people can not mitigate their way out of through behaviour, other than simply not having any income at all.

Being prepared to call that out for what it is is not 'heavily wanting a tax cut'. It is wanting politicians to be up front about how they are actually increasing the tax take without having the courage of their convictions to say that's what they are doing - because hiking taxes during a cost of living crisis and dragging minimum wage earners into the 30% net (which will happen in the next three years in Labour's plan) is abhorrent. And they can't justify it.

To then cynically portray that as 'certainty' is a horrific abuse of the government's power to levy and collect taxes. It is fundamentally dishonest, and correcting for it is in no way a tax 'cut'.

tdgeek

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#3135452 27-Sep-2023 12:22

GV27:

I am not 'heavily wanting a tax cut'.

I am wanting an end to tax increases by parties that do not seek a mandate from the electorate to do so.

They rely on the ignorance of voters who don't understand that the government wills inflation into existence through its agreement with RBNZ, but then refuses to adjust the taxes it collects from people on that basis. It is take with one hand, take with the other. It is a tax increase that people can not mitigate their way out of through behaviour, other than simply not having any income at all.

Being prepared to call that out for what it is is not 'heavily wanting a tax cut'. It is wanting politicians to be up front about how they are actually increasing the tax take without having the courage of their convictions to say that's what they are doing - because hiking taxes during a cost of living crisis and dragging minimum wage earners into the 30% net (which will happen in the next three years in Labour's plan) is abhorrent. And they can't justify it.

To then cynically portray that as 'certainty' is a horrific abuse of the government's power to levy and collect taxes. It is fundamentally dishonest, and correcting for it is in no way a tax 'cut'.

Tax threshold is an issue, yes, its always been an issue has it not? You mention it a LOT. Wasnt National going to roll them back to 2017? Didnt happen as they were not the 2020 Govt, but they will be soon, so are these new tax cuts taking all of us back to 2017?

Is Labour hiking taxes? Wasn't aware of that. Is PAYE going up a heap?

If you prefert tax cuts instead of anything else thats fine, as I said before. But as always in this thread, the long standing issues facing NZ that have always faced NZ, are being rolled into a current govt recently caused fiasco. Thats misleading to the extreme

GV27

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#3135483 27-Sep-2023 13:54

tdgeek:

Tax threshold is an issue, yes, its always been an issue has it not? You mention it a LOT. Wasnt National going to roll them back to 2017? Didnt happen as they were not the 2020 Govt, but they will be soon, so are these new tax cuts taking all of us back to 2017?

Is Labour hiking taxes? Wasn't aware of that. Is PAYE going up a heap?

If you prefert tax cuts instead of anything else thats fine, as I said before. But as always in this thread, the long standing issues facing NZ that have always faced NZ, are being rolled into a current govt recently caused fiasco. Thats misleading to the extreme

It's 'misleading to the extreme' to try and defray anything this government is legitimately answerable for as the consequences of 'multiple governments' and it seems to be your go-to response for almost everything.

Labour revoked Bill English's tax bracket adjustments.
Labour presided over huge inflation post-Covid.
Labour have not indexed tax brackets are are proposing not doing so in this upcoming term.

Those are down to no one else but them. How much more clearer do you need it to be?

tdgeek

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#3135487 27-Sep-2023 14:17

GV27:

It's 'misleading to the extreme' to try and defray anything this government is legitimately answerable for as the consequences of 'multiple governments' and it seems to be your go-to response for almost everything.

Labour revoked Bill English's tax bracket adjustments.
Labour presided over huge inflation post-Covid.
Labour have not indexed tax brackets are are proposing not doing so in this upcoming term.

Those are down to no one else but them. How much more clearer do you need it to be?

Most of the "go to's" here are one way. Ok, its only about the last 6 years we can ignore the rest, as all previous Govts indexed often...

Do Nationals tax cuts index us back to 2017?? No. That was ignored, as in a one way thread

As is always the case for many decades we dont have enough money, thats why all of the sectors have been left to wither, and thats with no regular indexing

Inflation? Ok, Labour caused it, no other factors at play.

Our small nation means we do not have enough cash to do everything. Some one posted recently that 1946 onwards we were prosperous, then we let that slip, now we are behind. We could get by more than fine, but we are still paying for how behind we let everything go. But thats only a 2017 to 2023 issue now...

In any case National will win, we have all known that for months, but you never read anything here about what National will do for us, how good it will be, etc. Nothing. It makes me wonder how comfortable we are with National, especially as this election should be a easy easy win. But as of this weeks poll, they could only get 60 seats. That's bizarre. It makes Labour look poor based on 6 years of supposed incompetence (couldnt run a soup kitchen) yet the Opposition are faring relatively poorly. They should be creaming every poll one after the other, but they cannot govern on the latest poll. If Labour is that bad, then National is as well.

Pity for NZ

ockel

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#3135509 27-Sep-2023 14:46

tdgeek:

Most of the "go to's" here are one way. Ok, its only about the last 6 years we can ignore the rest, as all previous Govts indexed often...

Do Nationals tax cuts index us back to 2017?? No. That was ignored, as in a one way thread

As is always the case for many decades we dont have enough money, thats why all of the sectors have been left to wither, and thats with no regular indexing

Inflation? Ok, Labour caused it, no other factors at play.

Our small nation means we do not have enough cash to do everything. Some one posted recently that 1946 onwards we were prosperous, then we let that slip, now we are behind. We could get by more than fine, but we are still paying for how behind we let everything go. But thats only a 2017 to 2023 issue now...

In any case National will win, we have all known that for months, but you never read anything here about what National will do for us, how good it will be, etc. Nothing. It makes me wonder how comfortable we are with National, especially as this election should be a easy easy win. But as of this weeks poll, they could only get 60 seats. That's bizarre. It makes Labour look poor based on 6 years of supposed incompetence (couldnt run a soup kitchen) yet the Opposition are faring relatively poorly. They should be creaming every poll one after the other, but they cannot govern on the latest poll. If Labour is that bad, then National is as well.

Pity for NZ

If Labour post a result in the mid-high 20% as the polls currently predict it will be the worst defeat for an incumbent Government in history (Shipley in 1999 with 30% of final votes). It will be definitive vote for change even if people dont support National. FYI Labour only received 38% of votes in the 1999 election hardly different to that where National is polling. It delivered the Clark era which presided very well as a centrist coalition. You clearly believe that Clark looked bad going into the 1999 election. Must have been a pity for NZ going into the turn of the century, no? I can understand your frustration but 6 years (including 3 with a unprecedented majority) of squandering does not return a party to power.

Oppositions dont win elections, Governments lose elections. And that seems to be playing out here.

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#3135513 27-Sep-2023 15:01

ockel:

If Labour post a result in the mid-high 20% as the polls currently predict it will be the worst defeat for an incumbent Government in history (Shipley in 1999 with 30% of final votes). It will be definitive vote for change even if people dont support National. FYI Labour only received 38% of votes in the 1999 election hardly different to that where National is polling. It delivered the Clark era which presided very well as a centrist coalition. You clearly believe that Clark looked bad going into the 1999 election. Must have been a pity for NZ going into the turn of the century, no? I can understand your frustration but 6 years (including 3 with a unprecedented majority) of squandering does not return a party to power.

Oppositions dont win elections, Governments lose elections. And that seems to be playing out here.

No, I'm not frustrated at all. It would be quite nice though if we could also read about what a new Government can offer. Given that a poll this week showed NAT/ACT would only get 60 seats if this current Government are clearly losing, which they are. Quite telling, they should be hosing it in

Squandering? ok. Twas a very calm period, so they squandered, all good. We can see how the next term goes.

GV27

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#3135515 27-Sep-2023 15:06

tdgeek:

But thats only a 2017 to 2023 issue now...

The exploding tax take and unwinding public service in spite of it is a 2017 - 2023 issue.

No matter whether you like it or not, that's what they are answerable for. They were the government.

If you want to extend your argument to its most absurd logical conclusion, I could say Vogel almost ruined this country with his nation-building program that we couldn't afford and everything since then has been papering over the cracks, so let's not hold anyone north of the 1880s responsible for anything either.

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#3135517 27-Sep-2023 15:10

A query I have re the minor parties. Since Liz Gunn's Loyal (lol) "party" (lol) only actually registered 2 candidates, if by some miracle she manages to make 5% and gets into Parliament, how many seats would she get, and - assuming it's more than 2 - what would happen to the other seats? Would they sit vacant or something?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/133005597/liz-gunns-nz-loyal-to-contest-election-with-two-on-its-party-list

Stuff has tried to contact the party for comment through its website, but was instead added to a NZ Loyal supporters mailing list.

Jeez, they must be pretty desperate for followers!

GV27

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#3135519 27-Sep-2023 15:22

quickymart:

A query I have re the minor parties. Since Liz Gunn's Loyal (lol) "party" (lol) only actually registered 2 candidates, if by some miracle she manages to make 5% and gets into Parliament, how many seats would she get, and - assuming it's more than 2 - what would happen to the other seats? Would they sit vacant or something?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/133005597/liz-gunns-nz-loyal-to-contest-election-with-two-on-its-party-list

Stuff has tried to contact the party for comment through its website, but was instead added to a NZ Loyal supporters mailing list.

Jeez, they must be pretty desperate for followers!

Arguably any seats they actually did fill would be vacant to some extent, but I'm thinking more intellectually than overhang related.

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