NZ 2023 Election Thread

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#3147961 16-Oct-2023 08:57

GV27:

All political parties have a policy agenda set by their members.

As an side, the lack of billionaire donors didn't seem to stop Grant Robertson from stripping funding from climate initiatives when he suddenly needed to look like a pennywise Finance Minister.

Only looking from the outside like 99.999% of everyone else but I suspect that was Hipkins rather than Robertson.

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Technofreak

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#3147963 16-Oct-2023 08:57

SaltyNZ:

Technofreak:

So far as the Greens go I think James Shaw would work with National but the Left Wing Radical section of the Green Party has too much power. The Co-Leader fiasco that James Shaw faced was a direct result of the actions of Left Wing faction of the party.

Well, you know how to fix that, don't you?

Actually, No I don't.

From some of your posts it seems you are a Green Party member and some of your post exhibit the idealist no compromise stance of many in parties like the Greens. For example your comment about never voting National. I think it is a shame that people can be so one eyed. Never say never is a saying of mine..

An all or nothing approach most often gets you nothing. It's better to give on somethings in order to make progress elsewhere.

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SaltyNZ

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#3147969 16-Oct-2023 09:07

Technofreak:

Actually, No I don't.

From some of your posts it seems you are a Green Party member and some of your post exhibit the idealist no compromise stance of many in parties like the Greens. For example your comment about never voting National. I think it is a shame that people can be so one eyed. Never say never is a saying of mine..

An all or nothing approach most often gets you nothing. It's better to give on somethings in order to make progress elsewhere.

And some of my other posts explicitly say I am a Green Party member.

If you want to 'fix' the way a party does stuff, you join it. Then you get the opportunity to have a say on its policies which you will never have if the only democracy you do is to drop a vote in the box once every three years. I don't agree with every Green Party policy. But this way I can help to influence it.

Not sure I said I would never vote National - I know I have said I would never vote Labor - note the spelling, I meant the Australian Labor party - but I did once vote Act because I believed (and still do) that they were right when they said that the Auckland Supercity was a better governing arrangement than the old district councils.

Of course that was back when they were a lot less far right than they currently are, although they did still have the three strikes thing going. But then whats-his-name got caught using the name of a dead baby to get a fake passport. And I wonder if they've got a new president yet? Law & order party indeed.

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GV27

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#3147976 16-Oct-2023 09:29

SaltyNZ:

Not sure I said I would never vote National - I know I have said I would never vote Labor - note the spelling, I meant the Australian Labor party - but I did once vote Act because I believed (and still do) that they were right when they said that the Auckland Supercity was a better governing arrangement than the old district councils.

Of course that was back when they were a lot less far right than they currently are, although they did still have the three strikes thing going. But then whats-his-name got caught using the name of a dead baby to get a fake passport. And I wonder if they've got a new president yet? Law & order party indeed.

I mean... if you take a look across policy suites, I can find something I like about almost every party. The Greens were the only party taking Solar seriously. Labour had the right idea with rapid transit but that got silly quickly. TPM tend to have quite a strong focus on early childhood and healthcare and New Zealand First were prepared to spend money on regional projects - even though the PGF was a shameful exercise in pork-barrelism, they at probably built some stuff that may have passed an objective business case process.

As for ACT - they were the only party likely to be part of the next government that voted for the Conversion Therapy ban. So there are some flashes of actual liberalism that shine through from time to time.

It just depends how many dead rats you want to swallow with a side-order of something you actually care about.

tdgeek

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#3147978 16-Oct-2023 09:29

Technofreak:

So all the work Todd Muller did with James Shaw on the Zero Carbon Act was a charade?

One positive National MP doing something green doesnt alter the flavour. Clean Car Discount gone in December, writing out a withdrawal slip for the Climate Change Fund

sir1963

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#3147980 16-Oct-2023 09:32

Rikkitic:

GV27:

As an side, the lack of billionaire donors didn't seem to stop Grant Robertson from stripping funding from climate initiatives when he suddenly needed to look like a pennywise Finance Minister.

How about explaining how wonderful everything will be under National instead of rehashing a campaign that is over with?

Who knows. That is the thing about "the future", you have to wait until it happens.

Has the exact same National party been in office before, NO.

Has Luton been PM before, NO

Has the exact same ACT party been there before, NO.

Are we in the exact same economic/political situation that we were in 9 years ago, NO.

Thats what I did, I judged Labour on their actions over the last 6 years. I have them a huge thumbs up for COVID, I dont think any party would have handled it as well.
But its the rest they failed on, over promised, under delivered, then the slew of election bribes they could have implemented 6 years ago.

How about we judge them on what they actually do, not ramp up FUD

If they screw up, I will be saying so then too.
For a start I do NOT want a tax cut, I would prefer that money to go to education, smaller class sizes, maybe a class size of 5 for those with complex social needs.
School breakfasts for those that need it and lunches for all
Home work groups so kids can get more 1-1 time, and then get a free feed then too.
Could even introduce hobbies (electronics, programming, photography, video editing, etc) for those that dont need the homework help, or have it as one session a week for those that do all week at the club as a reward.
Get in qualified experts/hobbyists to help with these , lets face it teachers are incapable of doing this.
Story time for 5 year olds, lets get kids reading.
Kapa Haka , Maori language

It also has the ability to lower after school care costs for parents meaning more money to spend of other essentials.

Its this type of thing that will lower our crime rate, lower our prison population, and improve the economy long term.

Education is a great equaliser , instead of trying to pull those who have done well down, we actually work to pull those at the bottom up, the long term benefits are far better.

GV27

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#3147987 16-Oct-2023 09:40

Rikkitic:

How about explaining how wonderful everything will be under National instead of rehashing a campaign that is over with?

Probably because that wasn't the point I was making.

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Rikkitic

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#3148029 16-Oct-2023 10:41

For the record, I agree with (almost) all the criticisms levelled at the government. I think their record of accomplishments has been abysmal. They certainly have not earned another term in power. I voted for them because I knew they didn't have a chance and I was very annoyed at Luxon. I still am. National's only policies seem to be to cut taxes, build roads and undo whatever the government did. I can't vote for them because I just don't like the way they think and I particularly don't like their current leader, who strikes me as vapid and lacking real ideas and has a nasty streak that he tries to keep hidden. Elections in this country always seem to come down to least worse.

However, this is a democracy and we have a new government coming, legitimately elected. On that basis I don't see any purpose in trying to score points off the shortcomings of the old one. That is done and dusted. That government is gone. Don't keep telling me what they did wrong. Tell me what the new one can do right.

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invisibleman18

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#3148035 16-Oct-2023 10:58

Just a comment on the voting process rather than result. Went to Queensgate in Lower Hutt on Saturday. There was a reasonably long queue outside the voting room which I'd expected being the day. Stood in the queue for about 10 minutes then someone came out and said anyone with a voting card could just go straight through and the queue was for enrolment and special votes. No signage indicating that so about half the queue then went straight in as we'd all just assumed the queue was for everyone.

evilengineer

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#3148036 16-Oct-2023 10:59

tdgeek:

Technofreak:

So all the work Todd Muller did with James Shaw on the Zero Carbon Act was a charade?

One positive National MP doing something green doesnt alter the flavour. Clean Car Discount gone in December, writing out a withdrawal slip for the Climate Change Fund

As you say, we should be concentrating on the National Party as it is now, not as it was three years ago.

They seem to have no problem at all pulling the old reverse ferret on stuff they've already agreed too when its convenient.

Other examples include backing out of the bipartisan medium density housing rules when the leafy suburbs started complaining and dropping He Waka Eke Noa in the face of a farmer's backlash at what was already a pretty weak set set of proposals.

tdgeek

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#3148042 16-Oct-2023 11:23

evilengineer:

As you say, we should be concentrating on the National Party as it is now, not as it was three years ago.

They seem to have no problem at all pulling the old reverse ferret on stuff they've already agreed too when its convenient.

Other examples include backing out of the bipartisan medium density housing rules when the leafy suburbs started complaining and dropping He Waka Eke Noa in the face of a farmer's backlash at what was already a pretty weak set set of proposals.

Or disagreeing with something that was passed, but will leave it in place!

They do have a number of actual changes (as distinct from marketing fluff) so lets see how delivery goes. Like flagship Kiwibuild, flagship Tax Cut Policy wont be delivered either

The next step is 3 Nov, what seats will be occupied after specials

SaltyNZ

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#3148054 16-Oct-2023 11:45

Decent chance after specials they will lose their majority and have to get NZF on board.

See here for a model: https://publicaddress.net/legalbeagle/election-23-the-special-votes/

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evilengineer

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#3148056 16-Oct-2023 11:51

Yep. Let's see how the specials go.

Best case scenario (as far as I'm concerned): National loose two seats to the left block leaving National/ACT on 60 seats after they get Port Waikato in the byelection and Te Pati Maori end up with six of the Maori electorates thereby further increasing the size of the overhang.

Funny to be cheering Winston on, but that's likely the kiss of death for foreign buyers and with a fair wind hopefully the remainder of the tax cut policy as well. Although they'll probably keep something to give Nicola Wiliis an excuse not to resign.

There'll still be diddly squat for meaningful climate change action, though. 🥺

Either way we've got three years of Mr.Luxon's word salad to look forward to.

SaltyNZ

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#3148057 16-Oct-2023 12:01

Honestly, most NZF published policies are actually quite sensible (maybe apart from their racing policy). Inasmuch as NZF are a handbrake, the country will be much better off with NZF in the mix than without.

The problem, of course, is Winston, who can make up a policy on the spot to thwart you if you piss him off. And he hates David Seymour (and the feeling is mutual).

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Handsomedan

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#3148064 16-Oct-2023 12:28

SaltyNZ:

Honestly, most NZF published policies are actually quite sensible (maybe apart from their racing policy). Inasmuch as NZF are a handbrake, the country will be much better off with NZF in the mix than without.

The problem, of course, is Winston, who can make up a policy on the spot to thwart you if you piss him off. And he hates David Seymour (and the feeling is mutual).

That is the concern I have - I don't like Winston the man (I have come across him personally and found him to be a loathsome individual), but I don't mind Winston the statesman. BUT - and that's deliberately capitalised - he is likely to make sure things are held up or cause issues, simply because he and Seymour can't and won't get on.

Seymour is just as stubborn, but is in a slightly stronger position (at least for now) due to the fact that his party has more seats and therefore a stronger seat at the table with National.

I'd like to see Winnie retire, then NZF join the coalition and there be a slightly more harmonious and stronger three-party government for balance.

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