Israel and Middle East 2023

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#3223687 28-Apr-2024 14:01

The video above is incorrect on at least one point where it claims Zaka volunteers are ultra orthodox. Zaka also has Arab and Muslim volunteers:

Reuters: Unlike most emergency workers called out that day, Warraqi is a Muslim Israeli Arab. He found his experience of Oct. 7 profoundly distressing, but says it also strengthened his belief that human beings must "stop hatred" and learn to live together.

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#3223693 28-Apr-2024 14:14

Wikipedia summarises investigative reporting by Israeli newspaper Haaretz:

Wikipedia: In the aftermath of the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel, ZAKA volunteers were said by Israeli newspaper Haaretz to have given several incorrect reports of atrocities allegedly committed by Hamas against children and babies that were widely circulated in the media.[35][36] A ZAKA leader acknowledged mistakes were made: "When we find bodies that are burned or in a state of decomposition, we can easily be mistaken and think the body is a child's ... Our volunteers were confronted with traumatic scenes and sometimes misinterpreted what they saw."[36]

A subsequent Haaretz report stated that in order to get media exposure, ZAKA spread accounts of atrocities that never happened and released sensitive and graphic photos in an effort to shock people into donating.[37][38]

The volunteers are not trained coroners or pathologists or crime scene examiners by any means and do not represent themselves as such.

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#3223871 29-Apr-2024 08:17

gzt: Wikipedia summarises investigative reporting by Israeli newspaper Haaretz:

Wikipedia: In the aftermath of the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel, ZAKA volunteers were said by Israeli newspaper Haaretz to have given several incorrect reports of atrocities allegedly committed by Hamas against children and babies that were widely circulated in the media.[35][36] A ZAKA leader acknowledged mistakes were made: "When we find bodies that are burned or in a state of decomposition, we can easily be mistaken and think the body is a child's ... Our volunteers were confronted with traumatic scenes and sometimes misinterpreted what they saw."[36]

A subsequent Haaretz report stated that in order to get media exposure, ZAKA spread accounts of atrocities that never happened and released sensitive and graphic photos in an effort to shock people into donating.[37][38]

The volunteers are not trained coroners or pathologists or crime scene examiners by any means and do not represent themselves as such.

The problem is that these reports are then used to inflame rhetoric.

It went from "Hamas invaded Israel, killing 800 people and kidnapping hundreds more" to "Israel is killing Palestinians", with the crowds not mentioning Hamas actions at all.

Israel's right-wing government is not a flower, but regardless of government, Israel's self-defence and survival policy was always clear. Their doctrine is, "Don't mess with us or we will be coming for you."

There's a reason why so many Arab countries tried invading it many times, and some ended up signing peace agreements. You don't poke it.

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#3224456 30-Apr-2024 08:00

The New York Times: "Hamas fires rockets into Israel from Lebanon"

Yes, because involving more countries in this mess is what terrorists want.

And shame on Lebanon and any other country that harbours terrorists.

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#3224458 30-Apr-2024 08:07

freitasm:

The New York Times: "Hamas fires rockets into Israel from Lebanon"

Yes, because involving more countries in this mess is what terrorists want.

And shame on Lebanon and any other country that harbours terrorists.

On the one hand, Hamas says they'll dissolve if Israel creates a Palestinian state, and on the other, they're trying to start a regional war that would likely turn global. They already destroyed the Palestinian Authority, the closest thing to a Palestinian state we were likely to get for a generation. Forgive me for being skeptical, boys, but I don't think you have Palestine's best interests at heart either. :-/

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#3224475 30-Apr-2024 08:52

freitasm:

And shame on Lebanon and any other country that harbours terrorists.

In the case of Lebanon I don't think the Lebanese have much say in the matter.

What is Hezbollah in Lebanon and will it go to war with Israel? - BBC News

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#3224477 30-Apr-2024 08:56

SaltyNZ:

Forgive me for being skeptical, boys, but I don't think you have Palestine's best interests at heart either. :-/

There have been no elections in Gaza or the West Bank for years. Neither Hamas nor the Palestinian Authority show any regard for the wishes of their people.

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#3224501 30-Apr-2024 10:10

Here's an article from early 2023 that almost predicts what has happened since. It also highlights the total lack of pressure the US has exerted on the Israeli government since they came to power.

Netanyahu’s right-wing Israeli government is beyond extreme - Vox

Normal Israelis must despair at what is happening to their country. The majority never voted for this.

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#3224587 30-Apr-2024 14:26

SJB:

Here's an article from early 2023 that almost predicts what has happened since. It also highlights the total lack of pressure the US has exerted on the Israeli government since they came to power.

Netanyahu’s right-wing Israeli government is beyond extreme - Vox

Normal Israelis must despair at what is happening to their country. The majority never voted for this.

Total pressure? The US is deliberately trying to shield the Israeli government from consequences, with Biden's team pressuring the ICC not to issue warrants for Netanyahu's arrest.

And as to "normal Israelis", the comments on their news sites are all Israelis saying the ICC has no authority, "but Hamas" (even though the ICC is reportedly also weighing issuing warrants for Hamas leadership), and saying "I hope you are burned alive" to anyone who questions the Israeli government. I really hope this isn't how normal Israelis think, but why is this the only rhetoric surfacing? It's gross.

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#3224887 1-May-2024 09:05

Quote from an article in the Times Of Israel.

"Of the 263 Israeli soldiers killed in the Gaza Strip during Israel’s ground offensive against Hamas, which began in late October, at least 43 were killed by friendly fire and in other accidents, according to IDF data."

It's dangerous in a war zone when both sides are shooting at you.

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#3226485 4-May-2024 15:08

The majority of those serving in Gaza seem to be ill-disciplined reservists and not regular army. Commanders seem to be mostly regular army with some exceptions.

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#3226488 4-May-2024 15:45

freitasm: The problem is that these reports are then used to inflame rhetoric. It went from "Hamas invaded Israel, killing 800 people and kidnapping hundreds more" to "Israel is killing Palestinians", with the crowds not mentioning Hamas actions at all.

Haaretz is an Israeli Jewish newspaper published in Hebrew and English. Since the assassination of Labour prime minister Yitzhak Rabin by a right wing extremist and the rise of Netanyahu it has remained a reliable part of Israeli democracy.

There is little chance of any protest influencing the policy of Hamas. The protests in the west intend to influence western governments to influence Israel to ceasefire and allow sufficient aid and end the disproportionate impact on civilians.

I think it's fair to say the western protests also support the long standing wish of the Palestinian people for the right of return for the refugees and establishment of an internationally recognised State of Palestine.

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#3226492 4-May-2024 16:15

@gzt:

freitasm: The problem is that these reports are then used to inflame rhetoric. It went from "Hamas invaded Israel, killing 800 people and kidnapping hundreds more" to "Israel is killing Palestinians", with the crowds not mentioning Hamas actions at all.

Haaretz is an Israeli Jewish newspaper published in Hebrew and English. Since the assassination of Labour prime minister Yitzhak Rabin by a right wing extremist and the rise of Netanyahu it has remained a reliable part of Israeli democracy.

There is little chance of any protest influencing the policy of Hamas. The protests in the west intend to influence western governments to influence Israel to ceasefire and allow sufficient aid and end the disproportionate impact on civilians.

I think it's fair to say the western protests also support the long standing wish of the Palestinian people for the right of return for the refugees and establishment of an internationally recognised State of Palestine.

All good, except nowhere in my comment did I touch Haaretz, which I trust.

Read again, please. My comment concerns incorrect reports by ZAKA volunteers.

SJB

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#3226865 6-May-2024 09:04

There's never enough prison space when you need it is there.

Report: Shin Bet forgoes arresting terror suspects due to prison overcrowding | The Times of Israel

The bit that stood out to me.

Administrative detention” is a controversial tool employed by Israeli forces to detain Palestinian — and, more rarely, Jewish — terror suspects without charge or trial, often for months on end without access to legal counsel. The tool is typically used when authorities have intelligence tying a suspect to a crime but do not have enough evidence for charges to stand up in a court of law.

Much quicker and easier getting rid of the undesirables if you don't bother with any legal shenanigans. Think rendition.

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#3226874 6-May-2024 09:16

Lets hope not.

Despite Oct. 7, Netanyahu is determined to run for reelection, and certain he can win | The Times of Israel

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