Israel and Middle East 2023

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#3300507 23-Oct-2024 14:36

freitasm: The current extremist government is the result of a revolt against the American-backed Shah.

Specifically, the US overthrew a democratically-elected reform-minded leader (Mosaddegh) and installed a dictator whose brutal SAVAK secret police were trained by Israel. It's not surprising that they have a bit of a sore spot about the two countries that did this to them.

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#3300527 23-Oct-2024 15:19

neb:

freitasm: The current extremist government is the result of a revolt against the American-backed Shah.

Specifically, the US overthrew a democratically-elected reform-minded leader (Mosaddegh) and installed a dictator whose brutal SAVAK secret police were trained by Israel. It's not surprising that they have a bit of a sore spot about the two countries that did this to them.

My point is that @Batman's comment should be clearer.

Was @Batman thinking that America's interests installed the current regime (false), or was he thinking that America's installation of the Shah had an unintended consequence: the current regime deposed him and changed the country?

Batman:

These are pictures of the result of Iran ideology. (you could blame America for installing this regime?)

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#3300600 23-Oct-2024 16:54

Batman:

things really don't need to be like the top pics. it's not Israel's choice. they are responding to attacks into their land by Iran.

that's assuming one agrees the land belongs to them. obviously Iran doesn't agree.

As I said in my post - It's the result of conflict in the Middle East.
It is the result of many different conflicts and is not one side or another's specific fault altogether - they all have more or less blame in this.
I can't justify the actions of any of the regimes in that part of the world, when it comes to all of the chaos and warfare and terrorism being perpetrated.

Imagine you lived your life on the Mediterranean coast and suddenly find yourself a few years later ina dusty war-torn hovel, through no fault of your own. Those are the people I feel sorry for, not the ruling parties, the warring factions, the various religious nutters that will kill those who aren't from the same Sky Man sect as them.

And when you say "it's not Israel's choice"...it 100% is their choice. They 100% choose how to respond to what goes on and they do so brutally, disproportionately and inhumanely.

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#3300612 23-Oct-2024 17:44

freitasm:

sorry i thought the Americans created the iranian revolution in the late 70s and as an indirect result we have the current iranian rulers.

it may have happened without the that specific intervention

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#3300616 23-Oct-2024 17:52

Handsomedan:

And when you say "it's not Israel's choice"...it 100% is their choice. They 100% choose how to respond to what goes on and they do so brutally, disproportionately and inhumanely.

did they rape women & corpses, behead and dismember people, steal food and money, use their civilians as shields? all the billions that UN has given to these "governments" have been used to build tunnels and cause these sorts of things. anyway, they have a right to respond since nobody else is doing anything. how they respond i'm no 5 star general. Iran is free to bomb them. Israel is free to respond. as far as i'm concerned. i'm not sure about the how, so you can debate but i'm not sure about the how.

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#3300617 23-Oct-2024 17:55

Batman: sorry i thought the Americans created the iranian revolution in the late 70s and as an indirect result we have the current iranian rulers.

The US created the 1956 revolution, not the 1979 one. The ex-CIA guy who set it up later commented on how embarrassingly cheap it was to overthrow a democratically-elected government, from memory it cost something like $40k (in 1956 dollars). Previously, Britain had invaded neutral Iran and set up a puppet government there because oil.

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#3300618 23-Oct-2024 17:58

neb:

Batman: sorry i thought the Americans created the iranian revolution in the late 70s and as an indirect result we have the current iranian rulers.

The US created the 1956 revolution, not the 1979 one. The ex-CIA guy who set it up later commented on how embarrassingly cheap it was to overthrow a democratically-elected government, from memory it cost something like $40k (in 1956 dollars). Previously, Britain had invaded neutral Iran and set up a puppet government there because oil.

my bad. i watched something called Fargo and maybe i'm wrong about the CIA in Iran ... i need to read a bit.

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#3300661 23-Oct-2024 19:24

Batman:

Handsomedan:

And when you say "it's not Israel's choice"...it 100% is their choice. They 100% choose how to respond to what goes on and they do so brutally, disproportionately and inhumanely.

did they rape women & corpses, behead and dismember people, steal food and money, use their civilians as shields? all the billions that UN has given to these "governments" have been used to build tunnels and cause these sorts of things. anyway, they have a right to respond since nobody else is doing anything. how they respond i'm no 5 star general. Iran is free to bomb them. Israel is free to respond. as far as i'm concerned. i'm not sure about the how, so you can debate but i'm not sure about the how.

These sort of simplistic statements grossly misrepresent the overall complexity of what's gone on over the last hundred years.

Going back to the Zionist movement terrorism has occurred on both sides of the Israeli conflict. Certainly the occupations of Gaza and the West Bank have created conditions where terrorism is almost inevitable.

Nothing about these conflicts is simple or likely able to be solved. The only constant is the people being killed, displaced and put into poverty.

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#3300675 23-Oct-2024 19:40

Iran
There was a lot of funny stuff with Russia and a little bit of France in there as well.

The revolutions Ministry of Intelligence , and SAVAMA seemed to speedrun outdoing the SAVAK.
Communists and secular nationalists that supported revolution were surprised, well not for long.
Then later as cleaning out society continued.
In 1988 Khomeini ordered a mass execution of political prisoners targeting thousands.
Being in the name of god it was all good.

This is only the recent record, considered to be very moderate.
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2024/country-chapters/iran

In the 60's South Korea and Taiwan had administrations that were not exactly shining lights.
Though compared to lands of Kims and great leaps?

However over time by encouragement from USA, EU and Global West.
Human rights gained more power, and now we have much better democracies.

While Autocracy and Totalitarian rule remain, liberalization is strangled.
China scolds us quite often, its always USA, EU and west banging on about human rights and freedoms.

neb

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#3300684 23-Oct-2024 20:14

ezbee: In the 60's South Korea and Taiwan had administrations that were not exactly shining lights.

For most of the 20th century Roosevelt's apocryphal "he may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch" have pretty much dictated US foreign policy in Asia, the Middle East, and South America. They have a pretty bad track record of supporting some of the worst dictators around. In fact in order to get US help with anything (typically guns and money) and to have them turn a blind eye to everything else all you had to do was loudly declare yourself anti-communist and sugar daddy Uncle Sam let you have anything you wanted.

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#3300747 23-Oct-2024 22:35

Batman:

freitasm:

sorry i thought the Americans created the iranian revolution in the late 70s and as an indirect result we have the current iranian rulers.

it may have happened without the that specific intervention

It didn't happen with that specific intervention.

The Americans supported the Shah, not the Ayatollahs.

freitasm

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#3300748 23-Oct-2024 22:38

Batman:

neb:

Batman: sorry i thought the Americans created the iranian revolution in the late 70s and as an indirect result we have the current iranian rulers.

The US created the 1956 revolution, not the 1979 one. The ex-CIA guy who set it up later commented on how embarrassingly cheap it was to overthrow a democratically-elected government, from memory it cost something like $40k (in 1956 dollars). Previously, Britain had invaded neutral Iran and set up a puppet government there because oil.

my bad. i watched something called Fargo and maybe i'm wrong about the CIA in Iran ... i need to read a bit.

You mean Argo. That's about an operation to rescue U.S. Embassy people from Iran after the Ayatollahs came to power.

Nothing there about the U.S. helping the Ayatollahs.

It's very much the opposite.

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#3300752 23-Oct-2024 22:46

freitasm:
Batman: my bad. i watched something called Fargo and maybe i'm wrong about the CIA in Iran ... i need to read a bit.
You mean Argo. That's about an operation to rescue U.S. Embassy people from Iran after the Ayatollahs came to power.

No, I think he does mean Fargo. No wonder he's confused about Iran :-).

Also, "yahyu bet'cha" is not a Persian phrase despite its sound.

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#3300755 23-Oct-2024 22:47

Yes, well Fargo is a long way from Iran.

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#3300790 24-Oct-2024 08:32

Of course all this forgets the toll taken on the lives of the Israeli soldiers who have accidentally mown down so much meat with their unsteerable D9 armoured bulldozers that one guy can't enjoy a nice steak anymore.

Zaken says he can no longer eat meat, as it reminds him of the gruesome scenes he witnessed from his bulldozer in Gaza, and struggles to sleep at night, the sound of explosions ringing in his head.

Or you could, you know, not blow up so many innocent civilians you need to run over them with a bulldozer to get past.

CNN rightly being excoriated for this. You always have a choice. That choice might be jail, but you don't get to whine about how choosing to kill people makes you sad.

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