Israel & Middle East 2023

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#3145518 11-Oct-2023 22:44

MikeB4:

This needless bloodshed yet again has its roots in post imperial Europe when lines were drawn on maps without regard or consultation with those affected.

Nah. This one goes back hundreds of years. The Sunni - Shia conflict is just as bad and inextribly intertwined in this.

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#3145521 11-Oct-2023 22:49

Gurezaemon:

It's a perfect storm — when their religious fervour gives an absolute belief in going to paradise explicitly if they kill Israeli citizens is combined with legitimate or perceived grievances about territory and human rights abuses.

The vast majority of Arabs and Muslims don't believe this or preach this.

The history of Palestine is hundreds of years of conflict with Israel only being around in the last 70 years. It's not a simple situation and there have been attrocities for a long time. The whole thing is incredibly sad and almost impossible to solve.

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#3145522 11-Oct-2023 22:52

kingdragonfly: The Hill: Mary Trump asks why ‘f‑‑‑ing maniac’ uncle is allowed to ‘roam free’

“If you agree my uncle is unfit to be in the White House or anywhere but prison, please support my mission to get this f‑‑‑ing maniac off our TVs – and our streets,” she said.

She specifically criticized Trump, who is her uncle, for his relationship with Russian President Vladimir Putin and its possible relation to the war in Israel.
...
In her post, Mary Trump shared a screenshot of her uncle’s comments on Truth Social that compared the ongoing situation in Israel to the U.S.-Mexico border, suggesting President Biden and former President Obama could be responsible for a Hamas attack on the U.S.

“The same people that raided Israel are pouring into our once beautiful USA, through our TOTALLY OPEN SOUTHERN BORDER, at Record Numbers,” Trump posted. “Are they planning an attack within our Country? Crooked Joe Biden and his BOSS, Barack Hussein Obama, did this to us!”
...

There's a thread for Trump. Can we keep this garbage, and your imported US politics, there please?

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#3145523 11-Oct-2023 23:19

freitasm:

Not for the faint-hearted. Images of death, violence and chaos.

‘Everyone Died’: How Gunmen Killed Dozens In Sderot - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

The sad thing is the amount of coverage this has gotten compared to Yemen. Yemen makes this, and the civilian losses in Ukraine, look like they are playing tiddly winks.

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#3145539 12-Oct-2023 06:57

Handle9:
freitasm:

Not for the faint-hearted. Images of death, violence and chaos.

‘Everyone Died’: How Gunmen Killed Dozens In Sderot - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

The sad thing is the amount of coverage this has gotten compared to Yemen. Yemen makes this, and the civilian losses in Ukraine, look like they are playing tiddly winks.

It's not a competition

MikeB4

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#3145545 12-Oct-2023 07:43

Handle9:
MikeB4:

This needless bloodshed yet again has its roots in post imperial Europe when lines were drawn on maps without regard or consultation with those affected.

Nah. This one goes back hundreds of years. The Sunni - Shia conflict is just as bad and inextribly intertwined in this.

Conflicts and famines throughout the Middle East, Africa, Asia and the Americas have seeds sown from European empires drawing lines on maps, relocations, farming changes and ignoring ethnic differences based on the empires domestic requirements. They then walked away leaving their mess behind them but of course taking with them wealth and antiquities.

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#3145548 12-Oct-2023 08:03

MikeB4:
Handle9:

Nah. This one goes back hundreds of years. The Sunni - Shia conflict is just as bad and inextribly intertwined in this.

Conflicts and famines throughout the Middle East, Africa, Asia and the Americas have seeds sown from European empires drawing lines on maps, relocations, farming changes and ignoring ethnic differences based on the empires domestic requirements. They then walked away leaving their mess behind them but of course taking with them wealth and antiquities.

The conflicts in the Levant, not just Israel, are far more complex than what you are are claiming. The madate for Palestinian was a transition from ~500 years of semi-autonomous Ottoman rule to independent countries. There's plenty of blame to go around but the region isn't a European colony that was pillaged.

The Balfour declaration was a massive turning point for the levant but even outside that the region has been a mess of religious and semi-religous conflicts for a long time.

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#3145554 12-Oct-2023 08:23

Handle9:

Gurezaemon:

It's a perfect storm — when their religious fervour gives an absolute belief in going to paradise explicitly if they kill Israeli citizens is combined with legitimate or perceived grievances about territory and human rights abuses.

The vast majority of Arabs and Muslims don't believe this or preach this.

The history of Palestine is hundreds of years of conflict with Israel only being around in the last 70 years. It's not a simple situation and there have been attrocities for a long time. The whole thing is incredibly sad and almost impossible to solve.

Of course it's not the vast majority.

It's a small number on each side that has this bloody-minded mindset — Hamas fighters who believe it is their holy duty to wipe out Israel, and ultra-nationalistic Jewish Israelis who refuse to brook any compromise because they feel God gave the land to them, not anyone else.

As always in this part of the world, it comes down to ethnic conflict turbocharged by religion.

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#3145561 12-Oct-2023 08:38

Handle9:

The conflicts in the Levant, not just Israel, are far more complex than what you are are claiming. The madate for Palestinian was a transition from ~500 years of semi-autonomous Ottoman rule to independent countries. There's plenty of blame to go around but the region isn't a European colony that was pillaged.

The Balfour declaration was a massive turning point for the levant but even outside that the region has been a mess of religious and semi-religous conflicts for a long time.

Read your post, those making decisions and declarations in this region were European in origin. The sickman of Europe the Ottoman Empire, the so called British "protectorate" etc etc. The arrogance and meddling is obvious. Then when it fails they lay the blame on others, and leave their mess behind.

Ask Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Jordan etc what museums display and store in basements their antiquities.

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#3145565 12-Oct-2023 08:46

Gurezaemon:
Of course it's not the vast majority.

It's a small number on each side that has this bloody-minded mindset — Hamas fighters who believe it is their holy duty to wipe out Israel, and ultra-nationalistic Jewish Israelis who refuse to brook any compromise because they feel God gave the land to them, not anyone else.

As always in this part of the world, it comes down to ethnic conflict turbocharged by religion.

I don’t really think the religious piece is as significant as you are making out.

It’s far more the usual mess of security and opportunity. Gaza is incredibly full of displaced people, densely populated, incredibly poor and there’s nothing to strive for there. There’s no jobs, there’s no resources and it’s very difficult to leave.

If aid stopped everyone would starve. It’s reliant on Israel for water and fuel for the power station. It’s the prototypical breeding ground for revolution and terrorism.

On the Israeli side their religion been persecuted for hundreds of years, all over the world, and now they have a chance for security they aren’t giving it up.

If everyone had an opportunity for a decent life there’d still be conflict but not on this level. It’s worked out in Ireland as the country has become prosperous.

Edit: added quite for clarity.

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#3145569 12-Oct-2023 08:51

MikeB4:
Handle9:

The conflicts in the Levant, not just Israel, are far more complex than what you are are claiming. The madate for Palestinian was a transition from ~500 years of semi-autonomous Ottoman rule to independent countries. There's plenty of blame to go around but the region isn't a European colony that was pillaged.

The Balfour declaration was a massive turning point for the levant but even outside that the region has been a mess of religious and semi-religous conflicts for a long time.

Read your post, those making decisions and declarations in this region were European in origin. The sickman of Europe the Ottoman Empire, the so called British "protectorate" etc etc. The arrogance and meddling is obvious. Then when it fails they lay the blame on others, and leave their mess behind.

Ask Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Jordan etc what museums display and store in basements their antiquities.

It’d be worth you learning about the organisation of the Ottoman Empire. They largely left their regions alone to do what they wanted, providing they were peaceful. Taxation didn’t change a great deal when the Ottomans took over, due to the way they organised their military.

They got overtaken by technology and scale as Europe modernised but their system was far less punitive than you are making out.

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#3145570 12-Oct-2023 08:52

Gurezaemon:

Of course it's not the vast majority.

It's a small number on each side that has this bloody-minded mindset

There are some decent parallels with the Northern Ireland situation, both in terms of the actors, and what might work as a possible solution. In both cases you have a coloniser (from the point of view of one population) who believes they have every right to be there (from the point of view of the other). In both cases, the vast majority of the population might not love the situation but are more than happy to just live their lives without all the political BS. You even have the religious element to add into the mix.

But you also have the hardcore fanatics who are willing and able to kill innocent people and sacrifice themselves to achieve their aims, never understanding that that simply strengthens the resolve of the other side to never give in. And in the meantime, the peaceful people are the ones who are hurt.

How did they solve it? Because there were some people on both sides who had the courage to put aside the wrongs and actually make real compromises. Know that you won't, can't, get exactly what you want, but agree to it anyway. The Good Friday Agreement has been massively successful. Sure, there are occasional incidents, but the bad old days of the 70s and 80s where the most dangerous game in the world was 'what's in the box?' at a Belfast pub are long gone.

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#3145579 12-Oct-2023 09:22

Handle9:

It’d be worth you learning about the organisation of the Ottoman Empire.

Okay

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#3145581 12-Oct-2023 09:26

Curious as to why NZ has not labeled Hamas as a terrorist organization yet?

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#3145582 12-Oct-2023 09:26

Handle9: There's a thread for Trump. Can we keep this garbage, and your imported US politics, there please?

This is a borderline personal attack.

Trump may be the next president of the US.

He also asserted, without evidence, that the “same people” perpetrating violent attacks in Israel were entering the US through “our totally open southern border,” before speculating that some people crossing the border may be planning an “attack” on the US.

Next potential president + direct comment about Israel not relevant enough for you?

"ad hominem attack": This fallacy occurs when, instead of addressing someone's argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument

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