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  Reply # 551019 28-Nov-2011 15:16
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crackrdbycracku:
BurningBeard:
crackrdbycracku: That doesn't mean that people who don't vote should be verbally abused, threatened or anything like that. But saying "Well, you didn't vote so don't complain now when the Govt does things you don't like", yep that's acceptable.


I think it's the "If you didn't vote, then don't complain" bit that irks me a bit. It's an empty maxim.
Plus I know people who don't vote and don't complain either. 

I'd rather someone choose not to vote than just tick any old box because they're obliged to.  I know a guy who bases where his tick goes with eeny, meeny, miny, moe - I'd rather someone like him sits this one out thank you very much.


I guess 'vote' is shorthand for:

"participate in the world around you and in particular the governmental process of the country you live in, regardless of whether you get the result you want at any given point in time

I would say people who vote because they are obliged to without thinking or randomly decide their vote as above aren't really participating.   

Living in a democracy is the art of putting up with 'stuff' you don't like but trying to do something about it anyway - CrackedByCracku


And why should voting be the thing that defines this?  
There are plenty of other ways to influence politicians and policies – most of them far more effective than your single vote could ever be.

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  Reply # 551028 28-Nov-2011 15:26
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NonprayingMantis: (as an aside, I did actually vote, but not because I thought it would make any difference or because I want the right to complain, but rather because my wife was nagging me to do it and we happened to be in the area. Happy wife, happy life!)

Come-on... man-up here and take some responsibility.
It's one thing to argue your obtuse reasoning for why your vote doesn't count... but now you're making your wife responsible because you did. 

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  Reply # 551031 28-Nov-2011 15:27
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NonprayingMantis: There are plenty of other ways to influence politicians and policies ? most of them far more effective than your single vote could ever be.


Like the guy on Cuba Street, Wellington the other day? That definitely was far more effective than a vote. Its a good way to deal with the problem of our aging car fleet as well.

I think I would rather live in a country of voters.

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  Reply # 551032 28-Nov-2011 15:27
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jeffnz: is the fact that 49% of a few SOE's is to be sold off just an emotional reaction or do most or the protagonists actually have a valid reason they shouldn't be part sold.


I read an interesting opinion piece on this last week, which asserted that it would actually cost us more money to sell the SOEs as opposed to increasing debt to raise the same amount of money.

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  Reply # 551039 28-Nov-2011 15:33
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oxnsox:
NonprayingMantis: (as an aside, I did actually vote, but not because I thought it would make any difference or because I want the right to complain, but rather because my wife was nagging me to do it and we happened to be in the area. Happy wife, happy life!)

Come-on... man-up here and take some responsibility.
It's one thing to argue your obtuse reasoning for why your vote doesn't count... but now you're making your wife responsible because you did. 

My vote makes no difference to the outcome, so I don’t vote based on some misguided belief that it will.  But I want to keep my wife happy so I did what she asked and voted.  What’s wrong with that?


It’s the same reason I make the bed in the morning.  I don’t think it is something that has any intrinsic value whatsoever (do you re-tie your shoelaces after you take shoes off?), and I wouldn’t do it except for the fact that my wife will have a go at me if I don’t.

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  Reply # 551044 28-Nov-2011 15:38
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IlDuce:
NonprayingMantis: There are plenty of other ways to influence politicians and policies ? most of them far more effective than your single vote could ever be.


Like the guy on Cuba Street, Wellington the other day? That definitely was far more effective than a vote. Its a good way to deal with the problem of our aging car fleet as well.

I think I would rather live in a country of voters.


Huh, don’t what you are referring to there.

I’m referring to things like writing letters to your MP, collecting signatures for a petition,  Heck, even responding to a phone poll asking you which way you will vote or what policies you like  is more effective than actually voting (because the poll will only be a sample, so your response will have a much bigger impact on the outcome than your vote actually will)

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  Reply # 551048 28-Nov-2011 15:43
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dclegg:
jeffnz: is the fact that 49% of a few SOE's is to be sold off just an emotional reaction or do most or the protagonists actually have a valid reason they shouldn't be part sold.


I read an interesting opinion piece on this last week, which asserted that it would actually cost us more money to sell the SOEs as opposed to increasing debt to raise the same amount of money.


Thansk looks a good article will raed it when i get home.




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  Reply # 551085 28-Nov-2011 17:02
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dclegg:
jeffnz: is the fact that 49% of a few SOE's is to be sold off just an emotional reaction or do most or the protagonists actually have a valid reason they shouldn't be part sold.


I read an interesting opinion piece on this last week, which asserted that it would actually cost us more money to sell the SOEs as opposed to increasing debt to raise the same amount of money.


If that is any sort of acceptable argument at all then the Government should be buying up other businesses to provide income greater than the cost of borrowing.

However, it would seem to me that the role of Government is to be a government not a conglomerate holding company owning businesses for no good social reason such as may be the case where there is a natural monopoly (such as may be the case with NZ Post and the enroute air navigation services of Airways NZ).

If the Government is to become a conglomerate holding company then it should manage its businesses as a portfolio as a holding company should. So it should be disposing of businesses in order to finance the purchase of better performing ones if they become available for purchase.

The attraction of the Government owning businesses such as the power generators, Air NZ, Kiwibank, etc to the average little Kiwi (can't fly, eats worms, only comes out at night, shy) is purely emotional and they cannot get themselves beyond that.

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  Reply # 551096 28-Nov-2011 17:21
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NonprayingMantis:
oxnsox:
NonprayingMantis: (as an aside, I did actually vote, but not because I thought it would make any difference or because I want the right to complain, but rather because my wife was nagging me to do it and we happened to be in the area. Happy wife, happy life!)

Come-on... man-up here and take some responsibility.
It's one thing to argue your obtuse reasoning for why your vote doesn't count... but now you're making your wife responsible because you did. 

My vote makes no difference to the outcome, so I don’t vote based on some misguided belief that it will.  But I want to keep my wife happy so I did what she asked and voted.  What’s wrong with that?


It’s the same reason I make the bed in the morning.  I don’t think it is something that has any intrinsic value whatsoever (do you re-tie your shoelaces after you take shoes off?), and I wouldn’t do it except for the fact that my wife will have a go at me if I don’t.

Given that your wife is clearly the decision maker in your family.... perhaps we should actually be having this discussion with her.... 

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  Reply # 551103 28-Nov-2011 17:29
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oxnsox:
NonprayingMantis:
oxnsox:
NonprayingMantis: (as an aside, I did actually vote, but not because I thought it would make any difference or because I want the right to complain, but rather because my wife was nagging me to do it and we happened to be in the area. Happy wife, happy life!)

Come-on... man-up here and take some responsibility.
It's one thing to argue your obtuse reasoning for why your vote doesn't count... but now you're making your wife responsible because you did. 

My vote makes no difference to the outcome, so I don’t vote based on some misguided belief that it will.  But I want to keep my wife happy so I did what she asked and voted.  What’s wrong with that?


It’s the same reason I make the bed in the morning.  I don’t think it is something that has any intrinsic value whatsoever (do you re-tie your shoelaces after you take shoes off?), and I wouldn’t do it except for the fact that my wife will have a go at me if I don’t.

Given that your wife is clearly the decision maker in your family.... perhaps we should actually be having this discussion with her.... 


Or maybe you should vote on the grounds that it is a decision that you actually can freely make as it is protected by  law.

But seriously...  

 My vote makes no difference to the outcome 


Do you mean by this that your vote won't affect the election result? I myself take a much longer term view. I would say the fact that capital punishment won't happen again in New Zealand is an outcome and it was won by many people over many elections. 




Didn't anybody tell you I was a hacker?

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  Reply # 551292 29-Nov-2011 09:21
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jeffnz: 
Interestingly Sweden, the country most thrown up as the example of a good welfare state, is/has sold of part of thier SOE's, I wonder why they did that!


I'd have to look into it, but I strongly suspect that Sweden likely also has extensive regulation of their natural monopolies (electricity, etc).  However in NZ we have a deregulated market, and a right wing government that laughs in the face of regulation (especially price controls!)

Provided there is regulation to ensure we don't suffer unbridled price increases like the last time they deregulated and privatised things, and controls are in place to ensure that "private equity firms" (Blackrock, etc) cannot get enough shares to influence the company's operation, I guess it could work.  But definitely not if it's going to cost us more than just borrowing the money instead (while still depriving us of future dividends).

I strongly believe this is the type of thing that should be put to a binding referendum, with all the information on it presented upfront.   That the government can declare that they will not release their reports and projections of the proposal on "commercial sensitivity" grounds is an abomination - no individual company's "sensitivity" should override the public interest.

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  Reply # 551296 29-Nov-2011 09:32
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oxnsox:
NonprayingMantis:
oxnsox:
NonprayingMantis: (as an aside, I did actually vote, but not because I thought it would make any difference or because I want the right to complain, but rather because my wife was nagging me to do it and we happened to be in the area. Happy wife, happy life!)

Come-on... man-up here and take some responsibility.
It's one thing to argue your obtuse reasoning for why your vote doesn't count... but now you're making your wife responsible because you did. 

My vote makes no difference to the outcome, so I don’t vote based on some misguided belief that it will.  But I want to keep my wife happy so I did what she asked and voted.  What’s wrong with that?


It’s the same reason I make the bed in the morning.  I don’t think it is something that has any intrinsic value whatsoever (do you re-tie your shoelaces after you take shoes off?), and I wouldn’t do it except for the fact that my wife will have a go at me if I don’t.

Given that your wife is clearly the decision maker in your family.... perhaps we should actually be having this discussion with her.... 



LOL Nice one!  

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  Reply # 551302 29-Nov-2011 09:49
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Kyanar:
jeffnz: 
Interestingly Sweden, the country most thrown up as the example of a good welfare state, is/has sold of part of thier SOE's, I wonder why they did that!


I'd have to look into it, but I strongly suspect that Sweden likely also has extensive regulation of their natural monopolies (electricity, etc).  However in NZ we have a deregulated market, and a right wing government that laughs in the face of regulation (especially price controls!)


Electricity generation is not even near to being a natural monopoly so you do not know what you are talking about. If it were so then there would be only one electricity generator in each country and as we know, most developed countries have many. It is a monopoly, however, but not a natural one when the state owns the generation and prohibits entry of competition.

Regarding Sweden and to save you the trouble of "looking into it" after you have apparently already made your mind up or have just knowingly thrown incorrect information around in the hope that it sticks (typical lefty stance ) Sweden deregulated their electricity markets before NZ did. I actually went there to see what they were doing. You don't know what you are talking about.

They also have alot of nuclear power which you may also think is a wonderful thing seeing it is in a country you apparantly think has nice socialist policies. Also, because of the nature of their electricity demand with seasons they also do things such as mining peat and drying it with the summer surplus of nuclear power generation capacity (nuclear power plants are best for base load so not ideal usage to shut them down) and then burn it in winter to generate power. So in respects like that their power generation is very inefficient. I cannot speak for right now but because of their previous neutral stance they had hydro storage placed in military reserves. All things I take it from your stance that you think are wonderful, they being in a welfare state.
 
I have also commented here before about Sweden and their welfare state as it is a country I have worked in several times and they strike me as not being a very happy bunch (dour even, especially in winter). It is also a fact out of their history, nothing to do with being a "welfare state" that they are a wealthy country and so what we might refer to as welfare (EDIT:due to them stretching our lesser wealth resource) they regard as just a normal expenditure.

So you are just parroting a lefty view from a position of no understanding and it is people that do that that inhibit NZ creating the wealth that would make us all better off.

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  Reply # 551348 29-Nov-2011 11:01
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freitasm: Just because you vote for someone/party it doesn't mean you agree with everything they say/do.

In my view, it doesn't matter who people vote for in the context of this discussion. If they vote they can complain as much as they want.

If someone decide not to vote then they simply posted a big "I don't care" sign in their foreheads and lost a lot of the credibility they could have with me.





That simply is not true. New Zealand is a representative Democracy, as part of "our" democracy registering to vote is compulsory, voting is not.

Now if someone does not register to vote then they meet  your " If someone decide not to vote then they simply posted a big "I don't care" sign in their foreheads and lost a lot of the credibility they could have with me. "

If someone see's no merit in any of the presented candidates for their electorate and does not support any of the presented political parties then it is more honest to exercise their Democratic right of choice and elect not to vote. Their vote is representative in the percentage of who voted and who did not  and thus counted in the electoral process.

Maybe for these persons an Abstain choice should be offered on the Ballot papers so they can avoid the ridicule for their political choice . After all in a representative Democracy citizens are free to vote according to their conscience,  free of undue influence or prejudice for their choice. Once you make voting compulsory you have taken a step back from democracy.




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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

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The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 551353 29-Nov-2011 11:06
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kiwinz: you make some interesting points, I think however that the number of people who truly don't vote due to the reasons you have given, rather than the many other reasons like "I can't be bothered", "or I can't be bothered to understand the policies" or whatever, they are the people I believe fritasm was targeting with his comments. The number of people who truly understand the process and decide not to vote because they can't find a party to get behind, would be tiny.

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