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Linuxluver
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  #776490 7-Mar-2013 21:38
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No. 




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Linuxluver
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  #776491 7-Mar-2013 21:41
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JimmyH: And the huge amount of cheap gas being found around the world through fracking, which is sending gas and coal prices for power generation through the floor, and making new thermal generating plant very feasible.


It's not really "cheap". 

It's a lot more expensive to extract than oil or gas from the usual sources. But the price of energy is high enough to allow fracking to be subsidised. 

What isn't known yet is the long term costs of fracking. 

Analogy: Jumping out the window from the 50th floor is a fast, cheap way to get to the ground. 

It's landing that expensive. 

The long terms costs of fracking haven't "landed". 




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mattwnz
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  #776504 7-Mar-2013 21:58
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richms: Im not going to, I could easily get the cash together to get some in time, but I fear a change of govt ruining the value of it basically out of spite, and the problems that telecom saw with govt meddling in their ownership rights with LLU, if power gets much more expensive they may regulate that they have to sell it cheaper to certain sectors of the population etc. Not a sound investment with all those possible problems.

Sky tv on the other hand looks like a safe bet at least in the short term.


What happened to TC, and what the previous government did with LLU, is what turns people off investing in the NZ stock market. A lot of mum and dad share holders lost a lot of value from that, and the shares have never recovered.

National is very hands off with private companies. I can't see the gov doing anything to sky, because tv is hardly something that is going to affect NZ's productivity. But a future one may do something with access rights to content, so there are more providers in the online streaming space. Skys traditional model of cable box and PVR is heading the way of the video store, as everything heads online, which is one reason I can't see the gov interfering with sky. The problem though is getting access rights to that content

nakedmolerat
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  #776508 7-Mar-2013 22:02
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government needs money..

they can spend less or sell their asset.

they choose to sell their asset... wait, let us 'sell' it to our own citizen.

in short, the citizen is paying for government expenses.





networkn
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  #776544 7-Mar-2013 22:59
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nakedmolerat: government needs money..

they can spend less or sell their asset.

they choose to sell their asset... wait, let us 'sell' it to our own citizen.

in short, the citizen is paying for government expenses.


Say what now? They aren't spending it on hookers and booze, they are rebuilding our crushed cities, and spending it on things we need and giving us a chance to own something and get a return on it. 

Your statements are just mind boggling.

In case you didn't know, all Government expenses are paid for by citizens, that's the way it works. It's called tax.

I seriously hope that if the next Government is Labour/Greens (God help us), they don't "re-nationalize" it, look how that worked out for Kiwirail.


nakedmolerat
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  #776550 7-Mar-2013 23:25
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networkn:
nakedmolerat: government needs money..

they can spend less or sell their asset.

they choose to sell their asset... wait, let us 'sell' it to our own citizen.

in short, the citizen is paying for government expenses.


Say what now? They aren't spending it on hookers and booze, they are rebuilding our crushed cities, and spending it on things we need and giving us a chance to own something and get a return on it. 

Your statements are just mind boggling.


My statement is simple and should be easy to understand.

That is the job of a government to rebuild christchurch (not sure which other cities have been crushed), roads, development, etc etc etc. I have no issue with that. I just do not understand why we have to foot the bill by selling us these 'shares'. Mighty River Power belongs to NZ government, by extension it belongs to taxpayers. We are not bringing money into the country by selling the shares to NZ'ers. We are using our own saving to foot the bill - money from these sales will go overseas to pay the debts. What will happen to our money if the company de-valued. The government book still looks good, it is us who will pay the price.

I favour the shares to be bought by people from outside NZ. Don't bother selling Mighty River if you feel it is importance to own it.

I also think in order for Mighty River Power to be competitive, all shares should be traded. I am personally not interested to invest in company that is owned by a government - too much variables.





networkn
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  #776553 7-Mar-2013 23:29
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nakedmolerat:
networkn:
nakedmolerat: government needs money..

they can spend less or sell their asset.

they choose to sell their asset... wait, let us 'sell' it to our own citizen.

in short, the citizen is paying for government expenses.


Say what now? They aren't spending it on hookers and booze, they are rebuilding our crushed cities, and spending it on things we need and giving us a chance to own something and get a return on it. 

Your statements are just mind boggling.


My statement is simple and should be easy to understand.

That is the job of a government to rebuild christchurch (not sure which other cities have been crushed), roads, development, etc etc etc. I have no issue with that. I just do not understand why we have to foot the bill by selling us these 'shares'. Mighty River Power belongs to NZ government, by extension it belongs to taxpayers. We are not bringing money into the country by selling the shares to NZ'ers. We are using our own saving to foot the bill - money from these sales will go overseas to pay the debts. What will happen to our money if the company de-valued. The government book still looks good, it is us who will pay the price.

I favour the shares to be bought by people from outside NZ. Don't bother selling Mighty River if you feel it is importance to own it.

I also think in order for Mighty River Power to be competitive, all shares should be traded. I am personally not interested to invest in company that is owned by a government - too much variables.


Do you not understand that the Govt are just the people elected to manage our tax (and other things) in a way that lines up with our expectations based on the way we vote. Whether they generate income by selling shares, or by tax, it all comes from you and I. Money for the Government expenditure isn't grown on special money trees. Mighty River is owned by the Crown which isn't owned by you and I.

 
 
 
 


nakedmolerat
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  #776557 7-Mar-2013 23:57
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networkn: Do you not understand that the Govt are just the people elected to manage our tax (and other things) in a way that lines up with our expectations based on the way we vote. Whether they generate income by selling shares, or by tax, it all comes from you and I. Money for the Government expenditure isn't grown on special money trees. Mighty River is owned by the Crown which isn't owned by you and I.


I work hard to earn money, I never expect money to grow on trees. I also expect elected politicians to work hard to maximize the income and manage the country. NZ politicians are not simply elected accountants. Let me simplify this again to you:

I have expressed my view that I don't think asking our savings to foot the debt is appropriate. There is NO guarantee that people who buy shares will always earn money, in fact we can lose our savings. I favor these shares to be sold overseas because that means the money comes from OUTSIDE into the country. If we buy this share, it means our money goes overseas to pay those debts (reduced our own household savings).

Can you please enlighten me - "Mighty River is owned by the Crown which isn't owned by you and I"

This is my understanding:

NZ eletricity department ->The Electricity Corporation of New Zealand Ltd -> Mighty River Power

Where was the money come from when we started NZ electricity department?

Edit: Please explain to me what State-Owned-Enterprise means? Crown Fibre Holdings is a state-owned-enterprise. Where do they get the money from when they form CFH?





networkn
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  #776569 8-Mar-2013 00:33
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I work hard to earn money, I never expect money to grow on trees. I also expect elected politicians to work hard to maximize the income and manage the country. NZ politicians are not simply elected accountants. Let me simplify this again to you:

I have expressed my view that I don't think asking our savings to foot the debt is appropriate. There is NO guarantee that people who buy shares will always earn money, in fact we can lose our savings. I favor these shares to be sold overseas because that means the money comes from OUTSIDE into the country. If we buy this share, it means our money goes overseas to pay those debts (reduced our own household savings).



You understand YOU spending YOUR Savings on buying these shares is OPTIONAL right? If you don't like it, don't do it.

I personally am happy to spend my money buying shares that is 51% owned by any Government as are 80,000 other people who have pre-registerd interest.

When you say that you expect our elected officials to maximize the income, what is your understanding of that incomes source? I presume based on your comments you don't grasp the fact almost 100% of income comes from you and I via taxes? What is the difference between paying taxes and buying shares? All goes into Govt coffers, and at least with shares there is a chance you can earn income from it (Which will also be taxed).

I also cannot fathom why you think buying these shares will send our money offshore? It's a NZ owned company, being sold primarily to Kiwis.

mattwnz
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  #776572 8-Mar-2013 00:50
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networkn: 

Say what now? They aren't spending it on hookers and booze, they are rebuilding our crushed cities, and spending it on things we need and giving us a chance to own something and get a return on it. 





The government could have saved some money by fixing the fees that builders/plumbers/sparkies can charge in chch, as it is an extreme event. Also new land prices should have been fixed. Apparently it now cost 50% more to build in Chch than elsewhere in NZ, due to them charging what they want. It is partly due to this, that NZers insurance polcies are now changing from full replacement, to agreed value. The problem is that if the insurers can't estimate how much a house is going to cost to replace, how is a house owner supposed to know, especially when builders can charge what they want after an extreme event. There are a lot of people who are making a lot of money down there due to this, when that money is better spent on actually getting people back into new houses.

networkn
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  #776573 8-Mar-2013 00:53
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mattwnz:
networkn: 

Say what now? They aren't spending it on hookers and booze, they are rebuilding our crushed cities, and spending it on things we need and giving us a chance to own something and get a return on it. 





The government could have saved some money by fixing the fees that builders/plumbers/sparkies can charge in chch, as it is an extreme event. Also new land prices should have been fixed. Apparently it now cost 50% more to build in Chch than elsewhere in NZ, due to them charging what they want. It is partly due to this, that NZers insurance polcies are now changing from full replacement, to agreed value. The problem is that if the insurers can't estimate how much a house is going to cost to replace, how is a house owner supposed to know, especially when builders can charge what they want after an extreme event. There are a lot of people who are making a lot of money down there due to this, when that money is better spent on actually getting people back into new houses.


Yes this happens everywhere in every disaster there will always be people taking advantage. However it would be difficult and add a lot of time to regulate legally and check that it's being met. 

It's a difficult situation and not as simple as some would have us believe.

nakedmolerat
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  #776583 8-Mar-2013 01:19
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networkn: You understand YOU spending YOUR Savings on buying these shares is OPTIONAL right? If you don't like it, don't do it.

I personally am happy to spend my money buying shares that is 51% owned by any Government as are 80,000 other people who have pre-registerd interest.


I am stating my view on a Geekzone forum discussing about buying shares in Mighty River Power. You can agree or disagree. I fully understand that buying these share is optional.

edit: I am also not interested in buying shares in a company that is controlled by a government. There will be lots of variables and uncertainty. If the government change, the policy can also change which can indirectly affect the share values.


When you say that you expect our elected officials to maximize the income, what is your understanding of that incomes source? I presume based on your comments you don't grasp the fact almost 100% of income comes from you and I via taxes?


Government can maximize the income by introducing policies that will support our export/manufacturing etc. This will indirectly increase the amount of tax. They can also sell state-owned-enterprise to get one-off profit. Other than taxes, government also earn money from fees, state-owned-enterprise surplus, fines etc.



What is the difference between paying taxes and buying shares? All goes into Govt coffers, and at least with shares there is a chance you can earn income from it (Which will also be taxed).


Paying taxes - you are obliged to pay it, no way around it.

Buying shares - you are using your own saving in a share market in which you can earn or lose money. 

I also cannot fathom why you think buying these shares will send our money offshore? It's a NZ owned company, being sold primarily to Kiwis.


I thought the government is selling their Asset so that they can balance their book? Afaik, the government is in debt from borrowing money overseas. Selling the assets means we have extra money to pay this debt. If the money is coming from regular new zealanders, that means our savings tied to the govt-owned company and the cash fund will go overseas to pay the debts (currently at $53 billion). Correct me if I am wrong.





Zeon
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  #776650 8-Mar-2013 09:19
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All I can say is the government shouldn't be in the energy business. Nor most other businesses for that matter *cough* Solid Energy *cough*




Speedtest 2019-10-14


ajw

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  #776671 8-Mar-2013 09:30
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And what was the SOE minister doing about it when all these millions of dollars were being squandered at solid energy. 

networkn
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  #776679 8-Mar-2013 09:49
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I thought the government is selling their Asset so that they can balance their book? Afaik, the government is in debt from borrowing money overseas. Selling the assets means we have extra money to pay this debt. If the money is coming from regular new zealanders, that means our savings tied to the govt-owned company and the cash fund will go overseas to pay the debts (currently at $53 billion). Correct me if I am wrong.


Yes I know Tax isn't optional but you are missing the point. It's still coming out of YOUR pocket into the Govt Coffers so it doesn't make any difference. If they didn't generate income via selling assets they would likely need to increase taxes or find another method of extracting money from it's citizens, as this is their main source of income. I am not sure why you aren't getting that. I am saying whether you buy shares or pay more tax, it's still coming from you. 

They are selling shares to balance the books. The money is borrowed already, nothing you can do about that, but they had to borrow money because of (Mainly) Christchurch. Whether you buy shares or pay taxes the money is STILL going overseas, there is no difference. Incidentally they could not have borrowed from inside NZ we didn't have the kind of money they required. Even if every NZ billionaire loaned them money it wouldn't have covered a fraction of their requirements.

Shares are a long term investment, and all investment has a risk.

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