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Geektastic
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  #1569811 10-Jun-2016 22:59
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MikeB4:
Geektastic:

 

mentalinc:

 

 

 

Geektastic:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are build systems available in the world that would cut house construction times by 80%. We just do not use them, by and large. See for example this video. They will provide more than adequate seismic, fire and insulation properties if appropriately specified.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are joking right?

 

 

 

They built a concrete block shell 23m sq room in three hours. There is only 1 room plus a "bathroom". No roof, no plumbing etc. I'm sure the standard retaining wall blocks could do the same thing...

 

 

 

It's a great to start replacing shanty towns but will be sad to see these popping up any where in NZ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I can see you grasped the concept fully there....

 

 

 

That was called a "demonstration". It's not a completed home, it is a shell ready for pumping the concrete into. The rest of it comes later. The video is designed to show the speed with which a building can be erected compared to traditional systems. You will need to extrapolate the additional time required for bigger buildings, site work, fixtures and fittings and so on.

 

 

 

The point is, you need not wait 8 months for a bunch of half-educated cowboys with nail guns to mess about on site building a large garden shed made of flammable materials that will probably leak, with a roof made of the same material pig sheds are made of.

 



It does baffle me that the Germans can construct a house in a few weeks and it takes months here and ends up needing months of remedial work. And cost heaps more after exchange rate differences etc.I know about the code differences but it still does not add up. House building is minefield and it does not need to be.

 

 

 

Quite. And if anyone thinks German building codes are lax compared to ours, they are much mistaken.

 

It's a question of competence and efficiency more than anything. I've seen examples in Germany where the architect uploads the timber frame requirements to a factory via the internet, a robotic production system creates the specified trusses, panels or whatever, they are packed, labelled and delivered to site ready to go up.

 

Another German system of ICF building has big polystyrene blocks with keyed ends like a jigsaw. They are light, easy and safe to handle and very quick. You build the walls for a floor at a time with rebar in the voids, then a truck comes on site and pumps wet concrete into the voids. You clad the outer and plaster the inner, and hey presto - insulated fire resistant walls in days not months.






Fred99
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  #1569853 11-Jun-2016 08:21
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Geektastic:

 

 

 

Another German system of ICF building has big polystyrene blocks with keyed ends like a jigsaw. They are light, easy and safe to handle and very quick. You build the walls for a floor at a time with rebar in the voids, then a truck comes on site and pumps wet concrete into the voids. You clad the outer and plaster the inner, and hey presto - insulated fire resistant walls in days not months.

 

 

 

 

This system has been used in NZ for at least 15 years.  It's not cheap, it's also not quick compared with normal construction - basically the same as building with concrete block.  Plastering the inner is unlikely to meet NZ building code now - a cavity system may be required.  I have some opinions on the system, some of which wouldn't get past the GZ filters.

 

As for the cost and time for a new house build in NZ, it beggars belief.   Expensive homes - but building companies fall like flies, ie Stonewood recently but many others.


 
 
 
 


MikeB4
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  #1569861 11-Jun-2016 08:48
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Fred99:

Geektastic:


 


Another German system of ICF building has big polystyrene blocks with keyed ends like a jigsaw. They are light, easy and safe to handle and very quick. You build the walls for a floor at a time with rebar in the voids, then a truck comes on site and pumps wet concrete into the voids. You clad the outer and plaster the inner, and hey presto - insulated fire resistant walls in days not months.



 


This system has been used in NZ for at least 15 years.  It's not cheap, it's also not quick compared with normal construction - basically the same as building with concrete block.  Plastering the inner is unlikely to meet NZ building code now - a cavity system may be required.  I have some opinions on the system, some of which wouldn't get past the GZ filters.


As for the cost and time for a new house build in NZ, it beggars belief.   Expensive homes - but building companies fall like flies, ie Stonewood recently but many others.



And the buyers wear it due to bad management which is prevalent in the industry.

MikeB4
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  #1569862 11-Jun-2016 08:49
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Lockwood have a good system, it's fast but expensive.

Geektastic
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  #1569895 11-Jun-2016 10:06
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MikeB4: Lockwood have a good system, it's fast but expensive.

 

 

 

With no obvious reason as to why, in a country full of timber, a timber house is expensive!






eracode
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  #1569953 11-Jun-2016 13:25
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@ oxnsox - on rent controls, earlier:

 

Trying to control a market with regulation and/or legislation (Muldoonism in this part of the world) never works - at least not for long and not permanently. It just introduces greater market distortions and you end up with more of a mess than you started with.

 

In the case of rentals you could end up with all sorts of under-the-table and/or off-the-record payments or non-monetary adjustments. Eg "I'll rent you this property at the regulated rate of $x/week if you also buy my car worth $5,000 off me for $6,000."

 

Or "I'll rent you this property etc if you also rent this unregulated fridge at an above-market rate, as a separate transaction".

 

Or "Just give me a quiet 1,000 bucks in folding stuff".

 

You might say ' Ah, but the renter will blow the whistle" but if their need is desperate enough, they will just quietly go along with the scheme.

 

I saw (and unfortunately was involved in, as an employee) these types of schemes in the 1970's to get around Muldoon's maximum Interest on Deposits Regulations and the rules about the minimum face value of types of financial instruments (Bills of Exchange).





Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.


Aredwood
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  #1570011 11-Jun-2016 15:05

It is the council's fault that houses are expensive to construct. Due to the height to boundary rules. This is why you end up with custom designed houses with complex roof shapes on small sections. If you have a large section you can build a simple rectangular house with gable type roof. And save heaps on construction costs. But it is cheaper overall to get a smaller section. Even though the cost of building will be higher.





 
 
 
 


oxnsox
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  #1570088 11-Jun-2016 17:42
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eracode:

@ oxnsox - on rent controls, earlier:


Trying to control a market with regulation and/or legislation (Muldoonism in this part of the world) never works - at least not for long and not permanently. It just introduces greater market distortions and you end up with more of a mess than you started with.


In the case of rentals you could end up with all sorts of under-the-table and/or off-the-record payments or non-monetary adjustments. Eg "I'll rent you this property at the regulated rate of $x/week if you also buy my car worth $5,000 off me for $6,000."


Or "I'll rent you this property etc if you also rent this unregulated fridge at an above-market rate, as a separate transaction".


Or "Just give me a quiet 1,000 bucks in folding stuff".


You might say ' Ah, but the renter will blow the whistle" but if their need is desperate enough, they will just quietly go along with the scheme.


I saw (and unfortunately was involved in, as an employee) these types of schemes in the 1970's to get around Muldoon's maximum Interest on Deposits Regulations and the rules about the minimum face value of types of financial instruments (Bills of Exchange).


Whilst I agree with your comments the greater point I was making was that in the current climate the 'silver-bullet' has to contain a number of elements in order to have any long term effect.

Utimately the aim is to push house prices down to more affordable levels, and whilst construction times may be a part of the problem, when demand blows out as it has, builders/et el also have to accept timeframes associated with cconsenting processes and infrastructure issues. No matter what construction system they use.

LVRs may be one element of the 'silver-bullet', income factors another, along with the likes of land taxes (for nonresident owners/ vacant properties). Capital gains tax could work, but may be hard to implement.... especially now the horse seems to have bolted. Some kind of rent control (which kicks in when things get silly) may also be an element.......

I guess there's no simple answer.....



jonherries
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  #1570104 11-Jun-2016 18:31
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Late to the conversation. Currently living in Ireland and house prices and rents are in the news. They are back above the prices seen in 2007, in Dublin. In the rest of the country and in the North, the house prices still havent really recovered and there continue to be stories about people who moved into their houses without them having completed kitchens, insulation, electrics, heating etc and still being in negative equity.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/cost-of-renting-in-dublin-soars-above-boom-peak-1.2677579


jonherries
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  #1570105 11-Jun-2016 18:35
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Sorry forgot to add the Irish government is about to introduce a maximum income to loan ratio of 4.5 which will be the same as the UK...

Jon

mattwnz
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  #1570119 11-Jun-2016 18:45
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MikeB4: Lockwood have a good system, it's fast but expensive.

 

 

 

There are other very similar systems. I don't think the insulation in them is as high as you can get with a house that has wall cavities, as you can really upspec the insulation well beyond the minimum standards in a house with wall cavities. My old lockwood which was one from the 70's I don't think had any insulation, and creaked like anything, but they have improved them since


JimmyH
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  #1570190 11-Jun-2016 20:58
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oxnsox:

 

Whilst I agree with your comments the greater point I was making was that in the current climate the 'silver-bullet' has to contain a number of elements in order to have any long term effect.

 

But rent controls shouldn't be one of those elements.

 

You could even make the problem worse in respect of supply - my making it less attractive for investors to build houses.

 

You will certainly make housing quality worse, by making landlords more reluctant to invest in maintaining/improving the standard of their house. If they are stuck charging a below market rent in an undersupplied market, then there is a much reduced incentive for them to invest in the habitability of the house, as they won't see it reflected in either the rental or tenant retention.

 

You will also make it harder for some marginal tenants (larger families, people with pets, people with poor english) to find houses - why rent to someone with a large dog that can damage the property, if there are fifteen other prospective tenants who don't have dogs and you are required to charge them all the same.

 

Finally, as another poster has pointed out, these regulations never work well. People find ways around them.

 

It's all very well to want to fire a silver bullet, but you need to make sure the gun is pointed away from you.cool


Geektastic
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  #1570254 11-Jun-2016 23:54
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mattwnz:

 

MikeB4: Lockwood have a good system, it's fast but expensive.

 

 

 

There are other very similar systems. I don't think the insulation in them is as high as you can get with a house that has wall cavities, as you can really upspec the insulation well beyond the minimum standards in a house with wall cavities. My old lockwood which was one from the 70's I don't think had any insulation, and creaked like anything, but they have improved them since

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, cavities in walls should not be breached by filling them as it permits water to cross between the leaves, at least if you are building both inner and outer with brick/block. The insulation should come from the dead air between the two and from the thermal mass of the materials. That is why cavity wall ties (the butterfly shaped wire items used to tie the two leaves together) have a drip point in the middle - so that water passing along them (if any) falls off half way across.

 

A standard building spec clause in the UK is that the builder shall not permit any materials to fall into unfinished cavities. I once made a builder remove an entire section of wall in a 2 storey house he was building for us because when I visited the site for a stage payment inspection, when I shone my torch into the cavity from the first floor looking down, I found bits of timber off cut, polystyrene packing, plastic and even his men's lunch wrappers, cans etc.

 

I told him he would get no more money until the cavity was cleared out to my satisfaction - something that probably cost him 2 weeks of unpaid work.






mattwnz
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  #1570256 12-Jun-2016 00:16
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Geektastic:

 

mattwnz:

 

MikeB4: Lockwood have a good system, it's fast but expensive.

 

 

 

There are other very similar systems. I don't think the insulation in them is as high as you can get with a house that has wall cavities, as you can really upspec the insulation well beyond the minimum standards in a house with wall cavities. My old lockwood which was one from the 70's I don't think had any insulation, and creaked like anything, but they have improved them since

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, cavities in walls should not be breached by filling them as it permits water to cross between the leaves, at least if you are building both inner and outer with brick/block. The insulation should come from the dead air between the two and from the thermal mass of the materials. That is why cavity wall ties (the butterfly shaped wire items used to tie the two leaves together) have a drip point in the middle - so that water passing along them (if any) falls off half way across.

 

A standard building spec clause in the UK is that the builder shall not permit any materials to fall into unfinished cavities. I once made a builder remove an entire section of wall in a 2 storey house he was building for us because when I visited the site for a stage payment inspection, when I shone my torch into the cavity from the first floor looking down, I found bits of timber off cut, polystyrene packing, plastic and even his men's lunch wrappers, cans etc.

 

I told him he would get no more money until the cavity was cleared out to my satisfaction - something that probably cost him 2 weeks of unpaid work.

 

 

 

 

I was meaning the cavity in the timber frame, between the studs, not the cavity between the claddling and moisture barrier. With 140 framing, you can get a very high R value.


Fred99
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  #1570426 12-Jun-2016 12:22
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Geektastic:

 

mattwnz:

 

MikeB4: Lockwood have a good system, it's fast but expensive.

 

 

 

There are other very similar systems. I don't think the insulation in them is as high as you can get with a house that has wall cavities, as you can really upspec the insulation well beyond the minimum standards in a house with wall cavities. My old lockwood which was one from the 70's I don't think had any insulation, and creaked like anything, but they have improved them since

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, cavities in walls should not be breached by filling them as it permits water to cross between the leaves, at least if you are building both inner and outer with brick/block. The insulation should come from the dead air between the two and from the thermal mass of the materials. That is why cavity wall ties (the butterfly shaped wire items used to tie the two leaves together) have a drip point in the middle - so that water passing along them (if any) falls off half way across.

 

A standard building spec clause in the UK is that the builder shall not permit any materials to fall into unfinished cavities. I once made a builder remove an entire section of wall in a 2 storey house he was building for us because when I visited the site for a stage payment inspection, when I shone my torch into the cavity from the first floor looking down, I found bits of timber off cut, polystyrene packing, plastic and even his men's lunch wrappers, cans etc.

 

I told him he would get no more money until the cavity was cleared out to my satisfaction - something that probably cost him 2 weeks of unpaid work.

 

]

 

Very unusual to have double brick (or block) cavity construction in NZ.  There were a few in Chch - not many left now though!

 

Lots of good explanations above for high building costs in NZ.  It all adds up, compliance, costs for connection to services, design to fit the largest possible house on the smallest possible section, NZ infatuation with large houses, OSH requirements - most building sites are now fully fenced, you need edge protection scaffold even with low roofs, netting across ceiling joists etc. Every house I've seen built there have been delays/escalation, a couple of houses built by the now defunct Stonewood, failed building inspections and remedial work required meaning work was stopped until that was passed, then several changes of head builder/project managers during the build, subcontractors not turning up because they hadn't been paid for previous jobs - the jobs turning into an expensive mess due to that poor management and loss of continuity.

 

 

 

 


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