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Technofreak
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  #1674478 20-Nov-2016 12:00
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frankv:

 

Yeah, I believe that's the reasoning too. It was probably sensible when the vast majority of people were members of some organised religion or other, and the churches did play a significant role in looking after the poor and needy. But nowadays, neither of those things is true.

 

You show a lack of knowledge. Obviously you have not heard of, Anglican Care Network, Presbyterian Support New Zealand, Catholic Social Services, Foodbank, Lifewise Charity of the Methodist Church, Baptist Community Ministries etc.  Take a look here and you might learn something. http://nzccss.org.nz/about/members/ These are just the Christian organisations no doubt there are non Christian ones as well.

 

There is also plenty of organisations like Vinnies providing emergency accommodation, locally they also provide 1000 sandwiches a week to Hamilton school children

 

frankv:

 

I suspect the Sallies would get a fair amount of their money back, whereas the Catholics would disappear their profits overseas.

 

 

 

A wildly inaccurate and insulting assumption.

 

Most main stream churches struggle financially. I very much doubt the Catholic church or any other church (Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist etc) has any spare money (profits) to send overseas.  Yes, many of then have same nice looking churches, but you'll find these mostly were built with donations and bequests. They struggle to find the money for their upkeep and rely on generous benefactors. 

 

 

 

 

 

 





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richms
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  #1674506 20-Nov-2016 12:35
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Perhaps if the churches are unable to survive if they have to pay the same tax that other organizations providing entertainment facilities do, then they should close that part of their organization?





Richard rich.ms

Stan
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  #1674509 20-Nov-2016 12:45
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richms:

 

Perhaps if the churches are unable to survive if they have to pay the same tax that other organizations providing entertainment facilities do, then they should close that part of their organization?

 

 

 

 

I think you are forgetting the public good alot of churches do 




richms
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  #1674510 20-Nov-2016 12:46
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Stan:

 

I think you are forgetting the public good alot of churches do 

 

 

Those parts can be done by other organizations without the sunday singalong sessions and other things like that.





Richard rich.ms

deadlyllama
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  #1674511 20-Nov-2016 12:48
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Technofreak:

 

frankv:

 

Yeah, I believe that's the reasoning too. It was probably sensible when the vast majority of people were members of some organised religion or other, and the churches did play a significant role in looking after the poor and needy. But nowadays, neither of those things is true.

 

You show a lack of knowledge. Obviously you have not heard of, Anglican Care Network, Presbyterian Support New Zealand, Catholic Social Services, Foodbank, Lifewise Charity of the Methodist Church, Baptist Community Ministries etc.  Take a look here and you might learn something. http://nzccss.org.nz/about/members/ These are just the Christian organisations no doubt there are non Christian ones as well.

 

There is also plenty of organisations like Vinnies providing emergency accommodation, locally they also provide 1000 sandwiches a week to Hamilton school children

 

frankv:

 

I suspect the Sallies would get a fair amount of their money back, whereas the Catholics would disappear their profits overseas.

 

 

 

A wildly inaccurate and insulting assumption.

 

Most main stream churches struggle financially. I very much doubt the Catholic church or any other church (Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist etc) has any spare money (profits) to send overseas.  Yes, many of then have same nice looking churches, but you'll find these mostly were built with donations and bequests. They struggle to find the money for their upkeep and rely on generous benefactors. 

 

 

 

+1.  Go to the AGM of your local church and if it's anything like the Presbyterian one I go to, you'll get to see the accounts.  They're boring.  My old church in Wellington sent money overseas, to support missionaries who were originally members of that church.  It wasn't much.  Destiny may have bucketloads of cash but they're not the norm by a long shot.

 

 


Stan
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  #1674512 20-Nov-2016 12:55
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richms:

 

Stan:

 

I think you are forgetting the public good alot of churches do 

 

 

Those parts can be done by other organizations without the sunday singalong sessions and other things like that.

 

 

 

 

Why do they have to be? Why not leave things the way they are? I would suggest that that you don't understand the mindset of people in many of the churches. The church is instrumental in helping people see that having a selfish mindset is not the way to live, helping others in need is an absolute core belief of many churches. 

 

I grew up going to a church (I no longer attend a church) the minister in that church drove an old car lived in a small 3 bedroom house and worked full time helping and counseling people and the church itself did alot for the community around them all donations where 100% anonymous and they never pressured anyone to give them money. 


Lias
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  #1674513 20-Nov-2016 13:01
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PhantomNVD:
Lias: just remove all churches / religious groups :-P


LOL, lets remove all sports organisations and stadiums too, shall we?

 

Sport isn't a blight on humanity that brainwashes children and in who's name untold billions have been murdered in, and sport wouldn't virtually cease to exist with better education and a ban on brainwashing children.

 

That aside, sport still shouldn't get government funding or tax breaks.

 

 





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richms
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  #1674516 20-Nov-2016 13:03
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Organized sport can often have health benifits, so that is a potential for subsidy from health services.

 

There may be some benifit from the social aspect of churches getting people out and perhaps not depressed that would otherwise be, but I dont see why that should exempt them from paying tax on the profit of operating a venue for hire.





Richard rich.ms

Stan
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  #1674518 20-Nov-2016 13:09
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Lias:

 

PhantomNVD:
Lias: just remove all churches / religious groups :-P


LOL, lets remove all sports organisations and stadiums too, shall we?

 

Sport isn't a blight on humanity that brainwashes children and in who's name untold billions have been murdered in, and sport wouldn't virtually cease to exist with better education and a ban on brainwashing children.

 

That aside, sport still shouldn't get government funding or tax breaks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Blight on humanity is a wildly inaccurate statement of the modern norm of the church, don't let anti religious views cloud the good that the church accomplishes in the community. 


networkn
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  #1674524 20-Nov-2016 14:09
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Lias:

 

PhantomNVD:
Lias: just remove all churches / religious groups :-P


LOL, lets remove all sports organisations and stadiums too, shall we?

 

Sport isn't a blight on humanity that brainwashes children and in who's name untold billions have been murdered in, and sport wouldn't virtually cease to exist with better education and a ban on brainwashing children.

 

That aside, sport still shouldn't get government funding or tax breaks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Billions? Excuse me ? I think you have a counting problem. What about the (Literally) billions of people who have been helped as a direct result of churches and Religions all over the world. Anything can be used as an excuse for Evil (or good), but your hardline on this speaks to the type of attudes of intolerance you seem to be trying to blame Religion for. 

 

As Stan has said, churches and religion are beneficial in dozens of way. In large scale tragedy, it is hope and faith that lead the way to recovery. I am sorry you seem unable to see it.

 

 

 

 


PhantomNVD
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  #1674525 20-Nov-2016 14:11
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Lias:

PhantomNVD:
Lias: just remove all churches / religious groups :-P


LOL, lets remove all sports organisations and stadiums too, shall we?


Sport isn't a blight on humanity that brainwashes children and in who's name untold billions have been murdered in, and sport wouldn't virtually cease to exist with better education and a ban on brainwashing children.



 



How sure are you? Maybe you too are "brainwashed"?

On the surface youth sports such as T-ball, Little League, Soccer, etc. seem quite innocent, enriching activities for children to meet other children and gain some of the benefits of physical exercise. But a deeper look into the vectors by which these children interact give us a better look at the ruling elite's plans for us. Children are brought together under a theme of competition. They want to "win" and feel "good." "Losing" is akin to failure and disappointment in front of jeering crowds. With stakes riding so high on young minds, competition becomes a means of survival for individual ego. The Need To Dominate begins (which we will later see is the undoing of the individual).

Children are taken from the natural and rightful dominance of parents and placed in a new environment where a "coach", (who is usually a stranger) dictates every action, thought, and philosophy of a child. Through the introduction of this "Third Party" dominance, children become used to having strangers in places of authority dictate actions, and thus will follow any orders handed down from self-appointed "coaches" unflinchingly and enthusiastically. Even worse than the ability for "coaches" to control, is a new behavior pattern created that makes children want to please authority figures, which, of course, is the end goal of all these programs.

Also beginning here is the creation of artificial group identity, a subject discussed in the next section.


Source (and an interesting read too):

https://www.hackcanada.com/ice3/tv/crashsite/sportsconspiracy.html


mattwnz
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  #1674534 20-Nov-2016 15:09
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richms:

 

Organized sport can often have health benifits, so that is a potential for subsidy from health services.

 

There may be some benifit from the social aspect of churches getting people out and perhaps not depressed that would otherwise be, but I dont see why that should exempt them from paying tax on the profit of operating a venue for hire.

 

 

 

 

I agree, although subsidies from health services really just creates more red tape, and the fact is many people get more health benefits doing their own fitness, which they wouldn't get any subsidy for. If you create subsidies, some people at least may try to work the system.

 

I do think that NZ is long overdue for a conversation about  these sorts of things. Included in that should be the tax rebate for giving donations. The thing is that NZ is far less religious now than we were when those laws were created, and things have moved on. Many charities are also now essentially run like businesses. But I doubt things will change for a number of reasons.


dafman

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  #1674543 20-Nov-2016 15:24
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Stan:

 

richms:

 

Perhaps if the churches are unable to survive if they have to pay the same tax that other organizations providing entertainment facilities do, then they should close that part of their organization?

 

 

 

 

I think you are forgetting the public good alot of churches do 

 

 

Yes, I agree, churches do provide some public good.

 

But also some public bad as well.  Just ask ...

 

  •  the victims of pedophile priests that the Catholic church sheltered
  • those killed in exorcisms gone wrong
  • teenagers who commit suicide because the are taught that their inherent sexuality is a mortal sin
  • those killed in religious-inspired (by US fundamentalist churches) violence against homosexuals in Africa
  • the millions of Africans infected with HIV because the Catholic church said condoms were a sin.

So they do some good, and some bad. And notwithstanding this, they should pay tax IMHO

 

 

 

 


Stan
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  #1674550 20-Nov-2016 16:06
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dafman:

 

Stan:

 

richms:

 

Perhaps if the churches are unable to survive if they have to pay the same tax that other organizations providing entertainment facilities do, then they should close that part of their organization?

 

 

 

 

I think you are forgetting the public good alot of churches do 

 

 

Yes, I agree, churches do provide some public good.

 

But also some public bad as well.  Just ask ...

 

  •  the victims of pedophile priests that the Catholic church sheltered
  • those killed in exorcisms gone wrong
  • teenagers who commit suicide because the are taught that their inherent sexuality is a mortal sin
  • those killed in religious-inspired (by US fundamentalist churches) violence against homosexuals in Africa
  • the millions of Africans infected with HIV because the Catholic church said condoms were a sin.

So they do some good, and some bad. And notwithstanding this, they should pay tax IMHO

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most of that is not relevant to New Zealand churches and that is what we are talking about.

 

 


frankv
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  #1674551 20-Nov-2016 16:12
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deadlyllama:

 

My old church in Wellington sent money overseas, to support missionaries who were originally members of that church.

 

 

Not a great example in the current context... sending money overseas to further the aims of the Church (i.e. convince more people to join) is hardly a charitable act.

 

 


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